subsonic 308 load
- Thread starter ifsta4
- Start date
Kjohn, I hereby pledge to join you in being the sillent shooter and reloader, plus this posting may be my last on the reloading threads.
In the past I have answered many requests for information by the person having sent me a PM. I hope this continues, as I will gladly share any information I may have, if it helps someone. Also, I have sent PMs to people on here who know more about the subject than I do, asking them to share some of their expertise with me. I shall continue to do this.
I have certainly enjoyed sharing experiences and information with the many like minded people on here. It's been a pleasure.
As a few parting thoughts, I must state that I do not believe that a light load of powder ever blew up any revolver. Smokeless gunpowder does not explode. If it could be made to explode by the simple expedient of loading some cartridge lighter than some loading book says it should be loaded, then the whole world would not allow smokeless gunpowder to be shipped just as flammable in the dangerous goods catagory and not as an explosive.
Boomer has told us what a gun looks like after a very small amount of real explosive is used to destroy it.
Here is a copy of what is in the Speer, # 9, reloading manual:
Bruce Hodgdon, founder of the Hodgdon powder company, heard these rumours of guns blowing up with light loads of slow powder and here are the results of his testing done to try and prove if it really happens.
And here are theresults of his pressure testing. Note that in every case, less powder produced less pressure. The ratio of this reduction also remained quite similar, right down to the super extreme low amount.
Please don't stop posting, especially on this thread, as a new guy I would hate to be the guy that started the thread that ended your forum posts !!!
Andy
OK, that's enough nonsense about stopping posting...
There are always going to be people that will try to spoil everyone else's fun.
It's the same thing that leads to gun control... Person 'A' doesn't feel comfortable with guns, so they think that no one (who is rational) should feel comfortable around guns.
I used to frequent a BDSM website, and there were/are also scads of "safety police" there too, every time I'd help organize a party, there'd be predictions of doom and mayhem, and invariably at the end of the event, everyone will have had a great time and no one died.
There are always going to be people that will try to spoil everyone else's fun.
It's the same thing that leads to gun control... Person 'A' doesn't feel comfortable with guns, so they think that no one (who is rational) should feel comfortable around guns.
I used to frequent a BDSM website, and there were/are also scads of "safety police" there too, every time I'd help organize a party, there'd be predictions of doom and mayhem, and invariably at the end of the event, everyone will have had a great time and no one died.
So if I understand all of this correctly some of you think Winchester didn't know what it was talking about when they printed their warning about slow burning powders.
*CAUTION: Loads marked with an asterisk (*) must be used exactly as shown. NO reductions in powder charge or change in components should be made because such changes can cause dangerous pressures.
How about a warning from Sierra Bullets and reloading slow burning powders.
SEE: Abbreviation for Secondary Explosive Effect. SEE is a condition which can occur when slow-burning powders are used at greatly reduced charge weights (poor loading density). Rather than burning in a normal fashion, the powder detonates, as though it were a severe overload. Also known as a “pressure excursion.”
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/glossary.cfm#s
*CAUTION: Loads marked with an asterisk (*) must be used exactly as shown. NO reductions in powder charge or change in components should be made because such changes can cause dangerous pressures.
How about a warning from Sierra Bullets and reloading slow burning powders.
SEE: Abbreviation for Secondary Explosive Effect. SEE is a condition which can occur when slow-burning powders are used at greatly reduced charge weights (poor loading density). Rather than burning in a normal fashion, the powder detonates, as though it were a severe overload. Also known as a “pressure excursion.”
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/glossary.cfm#s
Received this response from Finnish R&D engineer this AM:
"Potential dangers are double powder charge, too low powder charge that
might lead bullet stuck into bore, primer failure that might lead to
SEE. SEE is also theorethically always present with low charge, high
volume case loads."
We are have been in the reloading business since 1994 and have reloaded for 24 years. We encourage reloading on a daily basis, but go to experts regularly, such as the above fellow during the CDN Medium Range Sniper Rifle project and other matters when an expert opinion is required.
Regards,
Peter, Lapua in Canada
"Potential dangers are double powder charge, too low powder charge that
might lead bullet stuck into bore, primer failure that might lead to
SEE. SEE is also theorethically always present with low charge, high
volume case loads."
We are have been in the reloading business since 1994 and have reloaded for 24 years. We encourage reloading on a daily basis, but go to experts regularly, such as the above fellow during the CDN Medium Range Sniper Rifle project and other matters when an expert opinion is required.
Regards,
Peter, Lapua in Canada
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
delete
I appreciate every word you old timers type. I am not the kind of person to simply take someones word without some experimenting of my own. It seems so much of the information or missinformation is just repeated second, third, fourth hand garbage from Paranoid school yard monitors. It's usually pretty easy to decipher this junk from the usefull firsthand experience from you old timers and we need your sharing of facts and information to balance these threads. If it weren't for the 3 or 4 of you, well I wouldn't know much about reloading because very few others contribute anything of intellegence to controvercial threads as this one.
I'm not sure how exactly to take this statement.
I spent over two years developing subsonic loads for a variety of cartridges from scratch. This was before the plethora of subsonic loading information hit the internet. So my knowledge is gained from lots of personal experience. Yet I am also the one beating the safety drum here.
You seem to be suggesting that only people with no experience are calling for safety first?
Good question, I went and picked up some moly lube for this project. I now have 150 GR round nose to try out . Not too sure how to apply the moly it is the Lymans suoer moly lube, comes in a tube like a long doughnut, do you melt it, or just wipe it on, it is pretty stcky....
I don't think moly is a good idea for a subsonic bullet.
The challenge for an accurate subsonic load is a consistant powder burn. Powder needs pressure to burn consistently. The solution is pistol powder or very fast rifle powder.
This gives a nice pressure peak that drops off quickly, so velocity is not too high. Moly tends to reduce pressure, the opposite of what we want.
I used to make sub ammo in 308 for a silenced 308. I found 2400 to be about right. I did not use any Dacron filler - just some powder. I loaded around 10 to 11 grains depending on the bullet. A flat base round nose gives the least stability problems.
The challenge for an accurate subsonic load is a consistant powder burn. Powder needs pressure to burn consistently. The solution is pistol powder or very fast rifle powder.
This gives a nice pressure peak that drops off quickly, so velocity is not too high. Moly tends to reduce pressure, the opposite of what we want.
I used to make sub ammo in 308 for a silenced 308. I found 2400 to be about right. I did not use any Dacron filler - just some powder. I loaded around 10 to 11 grains depending on the bullet. A flat base round nose gives the least stability problems.
You don't need moly with the Lapua SS bullet, it works just fine bare, even in longer barrels. Aside from cost and the fact that they don't expand, they're a really nice bullet for subsonic loads. 8-8.5 gr. of Titegroup works well with them for me...
No. They are the only jacketed bullet that doesn't seem to need to be lubed. They must use some kind of special gilding jacket cause I never got one stuck.
Unless you like the looks of this .... then you had better seriously consider lubing your subsonic bullets with something. Moly works well but grease or fat is OK too.
Hirsch Precision (board sponsor - I think) carries Lapua bullets. They are not even too expensive which was a nice surprise. They only come in 200 gr size. Trail Boss is prob the safest powder for subsonic .308 Win cause it is super bulky.
Thanks this is the info I was looking for, I guess start with the max load for Trainl boss ( as much as will fit) and work backwards with the Lapua 200 gr SS is where I will start.
No. They are the only jacketed bullet that doesn't seem to need to be lubed. They must use some kind of special gilding jacket cause I never got one stuck.
Unless you like the looks of this .... then you had better seriously consider lubing your subsonic bullets with something. Moly works well but grease or fat is OK too.
Hirsch Precision (board sponsor - I think) carries Lapua bullets. They are not even too expensive which was a nice surprise. They only come in 200 gr size. Trail Boss is prob the safest powder for subsonic .308 Win cause it is super bulky.
No suputin, I am not directing it at you, just saying how it seems 99% of the safety police havent done the experimenting them selves and pass hearsay off as 1st hand scientific knowledge. It does seem and makes sense that many of the old timers that for lack of the holy internet had to experiment tend to live quite happily beyond published borders, weather it be over max limits or under minimums, areas that have the interexperts grasping their hearts, shaking and stuttering "you cant do that, for the love of the children".
