sucks 9mm isn't a big game caliber...

Never made any claims of being perfect. I've completely missed 3 shots this year, and took 43 squirrels. Missed entirely. As in the squirrels ducked/moved at the instant of the shot and my pellets passed clear, with no injury. I have also missed one partially, only knocking it out. Had to take a follow-up shot a few seconds later, which finished the job. The squirrel was unconscious but alive between those two shots, as I mis-estimated the range slightly and hit a bit high, damaging the upper part of the brain with a pass-through.

As I said, I try to avoid shots where there is doubt. As a result I don't take a lot more shots than I do. As you say, hunting is not target shooting. There will always be compromises involved, but one ought to strive to make these minimal by working on the related skills. If I find myself distracted in some way, whether it's excitement causing a lack of steadiness or some other factor, I put the gun down and focus on my breathing. It seems too few hunters give much importance to precision bullet placement, going by videos like the second one early in this thread - those half dozen or so shots from a Glock made me feel only disgust with the shooter and pity for the animal which had to suffer such a drawn-out death to satisfy that idiot's ego. Even more amazingly, he shared the video, and not out of a need for atonement. He was actually pleased with himself!


Obviously, ricochets are undesirable to say the least. I've read a number of accounts here on CGN, and more elsewhere, of even fairly substantial bullets being found in deer and other game by hunters as they butcher the animals. Not the bullets which made the kill, but bullets the wounds from which the animals had survived and even healed, often with broken ribs or legs involved. If someone's only capable of hitting a paper plate at 100, the edge of that plate puts the bullet up to 5" away from the proper bullseye, which is to say between spine and shoulder if high and rearward, or between ribs or hitting the sternum if low. Shattering a foreleg perhaps but without a clean kill. It doesn't seem like much of an argument in this context. Nobody is perfect. Not even close. But not even trying for a high level of skill in something like hunting where the suffering of another living being is on the line sounds immoral.

Your analogy of squirrel hunting to deer hunting is terribly faulty and you have drawn improper conclusions. I have hunted both deer and squirrels for more than four decades. On squirrels I ONLY take head shots, on deer I NEVER take head shots. Squirrels hit poorly or well but not incapacitated can get themselves into an unrecoverable position before expiring. In addition squirrels have a fragile skeletal structure and the ratio of lead bullet to body mass is significantly higher in the ".22 LR vs squirrel" as opposed to the "180-200 grain vs deer." A fatally wounded deer shot through the lungs (a 10" target) cannot (generally) get to an unrecoverable position and will leave a substantial blood trail. Where as the "attempted" headshot on deer is fraught with opportunities to fail... having outfitted and guided for many years, I have seen more than my share of attempted headshots, and have tracked and not recovered WAY too many of them, bullets through jaws, neck tissue, glancing blows off skulls etc... also, watch deer and watch the quick movements they make with their heads, your actual lethal target is 2 1/2," outside of which you are likely to badly injure but NOT recover the animal... it is true that on a really bad shot you may miss entirely (best case scenario), but considering you are attempting to hit the smallest target to create a fatal outcome, a really bad miss is a ten fold failure, and a slightly bad miss is a disaster.

Headshots on big game animals are just too risky and to my thinking and in my practice should not be promoted.
 
I agree about the standardized test, but since you're quoting Norway, one of the Scandinavian countries, be advised that head shots are a no-no and considered extremely unethical. I think you'd find find that most European hunters tend to "overgun", rather than experiment on a live animal.

If 9.3x57 and 6.5x55 for moose is being overgunned then a 9x19 should be fine for our deer lol
 
Having actually shot a mule deer with a 9mm pistol I can tell you that, short of a survival situation, the endeavour would be pointless. Performance may be slightly better out of a PCC, but in the end it is a tool of last resort or exigent circumstances.
 
Your analogy of squirrel hunting to deer hunting is terribly faulty and you have drawn improper conclusions. I have hunted both deer and squirrels for more than four decades. On squirrels I ONLY take head shots, on deer I NEVER take head shots. Squirrels hit poorly or well but not incapacitated can get themselves into an unrecoverable position before expiring. In addition squirrels have a fragile skeletal structure and the ratio of lead bullet to body mass is significantly higher in the ".22 LR vs squirrel" as opposed to the "180-200 grain vs deer." A fatally wounded deer shot through the lungs (a 10" target) cannot (generally) get to an unrecoverable position and will leave a substantial blood trail. Where as the "attempted" headshot on deer is fraught with opportunities to fail... having outfitted and guided for many years, I have seen more than my share of attempted headshots, and have tracked and not recovered WAY too many of them, bullets through jaws, neck tissue, glancing blows off skulls etc... also, watch deer and watch the quick movements they make with their heads, your actual lethal target is 2 1/2," outside of which you are likely to badly injure but NOT recover the animal... it is true that on a really bad shot you may miss entirely (best case scenario), but considering you are attempting to hit the smallest target to create a fatal outcome, a really bad miss is a ten fold failure, and a slightly bad miss is a disaster.

Headshots on big game animals are just too risky and to my thinking and in my practice should not be promoted.

A thoughtful response, thank you for this, well worth considering your experience and perspective. I guess one quibble might be regarding sudden head movement... as few creatures dart around quite as suddenly as squirrels. But no need to quibble. I'll keep researching and testing and won't do anything foolish. BTW, never used .22lr on a squirrel so far, just pellets at under 19fpe, as that's plenty of power for these little guys.
 
...or capable of taking big game. so many nice and light carbine's out there that would make for excellent bush guns!

Technically in BC it is legal for hunting large game but that doesn’t mean I’d use 9mm on large game unless it was an eat or starve situation if I was lost or stranded in the woods for a while. Aside from bullet requirements for bison hunting and min shotgun bore sizes for certain hunting applications there’s very little restriction in BC with regards to calibers, the synopsis mentions rimfire and centerfire and shotguns on pg.16 as to what’s legal to use for certain game as well as any restrictions for each. Pg17 touches on firearms as well.

Honestly I’d have to do some real world testing of 9mm to really decide if it would be ethical and humane to use on say deer, nobody has touched on P+ or P++ ammo options. If I was to use a pistol cartridge like a 9mm to hunt large game it would be at close range and if that’s the case I’d likely pick a 12g and a slug. It’s much more versatile with the use of different shot and chokes than a pcc as far as I’m concerned.

I’ve always thought a 9mm carbine would be a nice small game rifle but .22lr or 12g birdshot is just as good at killing hares or upland bird and is much cheaper to buy and shoot.
 
It can be done, 9x19mm is legal for big game in Alberta. Definitely not the first cartridge id recommend tho!

A whitetail buck shot in the noggin with a single 124gr HP about 50m away with my Just Right Carbine. 2 seasons ago.

QH9CPLU
 
Having actually shot a mule deer with a 9mm pistol I can tell you that, short of a survival situation, the endeavour would be pointless. Performance may be slightly better out of a PCC, but in the end it is a tool of last resort or exigent circumstances.

Would you mind sharing the story? Shot placement, range, bullet etc
 
Good on you for harvesting that deer.. But the head shot 9mm thing ..To me it is not ethical or right..

The deer died instantly, so in that case it was 100% ethical/humane/right. The buck had been poached off a road during the last night of the season. We stumbled across its bloody trail while coming back from a pheasant hunt. Armed only with shotguns loaded with birdshot, and my trusty JR for varmints. We followed the blood trail to where the poor ass shot deer attempted to bed down for the night while also fighting off coyotes. We eventually caught up to it dragging itself thru a coulee. Cornered it and then put it out of its misery with the JR. The meat wasn't tainted so my dad slapped his unfilled tag on it. A win win, and also an answer to the OPs question.
 
My point with the picture is that it’s not like you’re really gaining much. Now that 94 is a trapper and it is a little heavier than the cx4, I don’t have an appropriate scale but I’m sure the weights are available online. Regardless of weight I think the Winchester is nicer to carry.

Really I’d rather have the Winchester in just about every big or medium sized game hunting scenario.
 
Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done. 9mm is not a round that was designed for hunting game.

Should change that to BIG game. 9x19mm is an EXCELLENT sub 100m small game round. I can list a dozen reasons as to why. It is the first gun I grab for varmint hunting.
 
I find the debate about the 9x19 amusing. A few years ago I posted about my Grandfather claiming the 25-20, 32-20, and 44-40 were good for bear in bow and arrow range (sounds familiar eh), basically the peanut gallery consensus was that it was a load of BS.

Compare them with velocity, energy, momentum, Wooters lethality index and Sectional Density

9x19 with the 147 grainer at 1100 fps mentioned earlier.

Weight 147
Velocity 1100
Energy 395
Momentum 23.1
Lethality Index 23.4
SD .167

25-20 as advertised by Dominion
Weight 86
Velocity 1460
Energy 405
Momentum 17.9
Lethality Index 19.4
SD .186

32-20 Dominion
Weight 115
Velocity 1480
Energy 560
Momentum 24.3
Lethality Index 29.5
SD .169

44-40 Dominion
Weight 200
Velocity 1310
Energy 760
Momentum 37.4
Lethality Index 50
SD .140
 
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