Suprising business idea

That's what you would buy in the '30s to shoot your Snider - mine's a hacked-up 1* and I fired the whole box of 10 (balloon-headed) without Any problem.
Around 15 or 20 years ago I posted a letter from a retired CIL fellow on britishmilitaria forums stating that they indeed used smokeless, and he gave me the pwdr and charge weight used - problem is I forget, and while I know its somewhere on their board, it'd take a while to find it.
I'll take a look-see.

Found it !
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/4813/FYI#.UnbkUH6Ehpg
 
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Those CIL smokeless rounds were made for use in Snider rifles. Period. This was a major manufacturer with all the testing equipment needed to know exactly how their ammunition performed. Just because propellant may be smokeless, it does not mean that pressures will automatically exceed the limits of old rifles. Similarly, black powder loads are not necessarily low pressure; pressures can get rather high.
 
tiriaq said:
Those CIL smokeless rounds were made for use in Snider rifles. Period. This was a major manufacturer with all the testing equipment needed to know exactly how their ammunition performed. Just because propellant may be smokeless, it does not mean that pressures will automatically exceed the limits of old rifles. Similarly, black powder loads are not necessarily low pressure; pressures can get rather high.
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yes but smokeless should be avoided in sniders again these are conversions from muzzle loading guns with forge welded barrels. anyone who wants to shoot a martini or snider should reload with BP its simple and it works

biggest problem is trailboss witch is made to fill cases like BP but in the martini its well proven to spike well over normal pressure who knows what it would do in the snider
 
antiqueguy said:
problem is a light load of what id only trust smokeless in a mk4 martini henry and anything less then the military load will not shoot to the sights ten-x btw is not the greatest ammo around they use 777 witch for all intensive purposes is a smokeless powder and very corrosive and anything but black powder in a snider is asking for something to go wrong
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*which* for all *intents and purposes*.

Not a grammar nazi....just trying to help out ;)
 
Musketfire said:
Hi guys, well I have been thinking "wife thinks thats usually a sign of trouble".

Why is there no one in Canada that produces obsolete ammunition? Now I know a few fellows provide brass but Im talking about packages of loaded and ready ammunition for more common antique cartridge arms such as the snider and the Martini arms.

Make facsimiles of the old paper wrapped packages etc etc, a quality type of product and packaging.


What are the legalities of such a business regarding shipping and production?

The demand is there with a modest profit to be had.



What do you think?
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As a serial entrepreneur I see a number of challenges that will have to be addressed.

1) Liability. We live in a litigious society. If you reload a cartridge yourself and it blows up your gun and hurts you the liability is clearly on your shoulders. If it was a commercial cartridge that was purchased then fault isn't nearly as clear. Was it the cartridge? Was it the gun? After all it was an antique. Was the cartridge loaded to spec? What is the SAAMI spec on a .577 snider? You are going to need deep pockets for the lawyers for this opportunity. That cost has to be factored in. If you could get business insurance that would be a bonus but I think it is unlikely.

1) Consistency. Not of the cartridges but of the guns they will be fired in. Manufacturing tolerances varied much more than they do today and the materials weren't nearly as consistent or robust. The chances of someone using an inappropriate cartridge and hurting themselves or others is much much greater than with modern firearms which brings you back to point 1. The only way to shoot an antique firearm safely is to a) be sure that it is in proper operating condition and b) ensure that the cartridge is appropriate for the arm in every way including strength of the charge. Dimensions of the brass, Diameter and composition of the bullet. The only solution that answers these conditions is one that is tailored to the individual firearm in 90% of the cases due to the inconsistency and age of these antique arms.

3) Obsolete for a reason. Antique firearms don't usually have the correct caliber stamped on the barrel. Furthermore, If the cartridge fits the chamber there are many people that think this means it is the correct cartridge for the firearm. This is simply not true and there is much more chance of dangerous combinations in antique arms. In modern arms great effort has been made to prevent combinations that will lead to catastrophe. You have to ask yourself "Why do cartridges become obsolete?". In some cases it is because something better entered the market but this isn't the only reason. Manufacturers have moved to standardize calibers and eliminate confusion. Injured customers are very hard on a business's bottom line.


I like the idea of modern ammunition in old time packaging sitting on a store shelf but when it comes to antiques I don't think you can get away from the end-user reloading it themselves. That doesn't mean that there isn't an opportunity here. I think the best you could hope for would be something like HC Collection in France where you provide all the components necessary but the end user still has to assemble them. Nobody provides anything that comprehensive in Canada. Also, there are individuals in the US that make antique style boxes for ammo. I see no reason why something like that couldn't be offered as well. In this fashion all liability is on the end user and the business can focus on providing quality products without feeding the lawyers and insurance companies.
 
One issue I see is the line about a moderate profit (read as cheap) which almost guarantees a failure. No business survives unless there is profit, and for a limited market, you would need to maximize profits to remain in business. Just my thoughts,,,,,,,
 
PaulR42 said:
One issue I see is the line about a moderate profit (read as cheap) which almost guarantees a failure. No business survives unless there is profit, and for a limited market, you would need to maximize profits to remain in business. Just my thoughts,,,,,,,
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Anyone considering something like this has to accept that part of the reason they are doing it is because they enjoy it/ are good at it/ etc. In other words it is probably a labor of love.

That being said, nothing fills a ventures sails better than success. One of the first things I always look for is margin. Margin gives you the flexibility to make mistakes, learn and grow. If I wanted to get an idea of potential profit for a venture like this I probably would start at looking at companies that do similar things in other markets and see what I could learn from them.
 
tiriaq said:
I think that real RF ammunition would find a ready market. .25, .32, .38, .41 for sure, maybe larger ones like .44 and the Spencers.
But producing these would require a real ammunition manufacturing facility.
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I have some HC offset brass etc. but I just can't seem to get around to finishing them as the final product seems a bit cheezy.

Being able to purchase blank rimfire brass/copper would be interesting...

tiriaq said:
Instead of screwing around with offset primers, which require single loading with careful orientation, I was thinking in terms of real rimfire ammunition.
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It becomes much more feasible if you break it into parts. Nobody offers blank rimfire brass. Priming compound etc.
 
antiqueguy said:
yes but smokeless should be avoided in sniders again these are conversions from muzzle loading guns with forge welded barrels. anyone who wants to shoot a martini or snider should reload with BP its simple and it works

biggest problem is trailboss witch is made to fill cases like BP but in the martini its well proven to spike well over normal pressure who knows what it would do in the snider
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Obviously your expert knowledge is superior to that of the Canadian Industries Limited ammunition division.;)
 
tiriaq said:
Obviously your expert knowledge is superior to that of the Canadian Industries Limited ammunition division.;)
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nope but considering I've been behind the trigger one a snider auto ejected I can tell you its not fun lol though I have researched both martini and snider extensively and have owned both for quite a while reloaded for them both for a long time btw I cant stop them from multiplying :D
 
I briefly looked into this for selling .41 Colt. All I remember is NRCAN had to test each caliber consistently conformed to SAAMI specs before you could be licensed to sell it. In the case of an extremely obsolete caliber with no data I'm not sure how that would work.
 
ALL the calibres you guys are talking about were produced or imported from the UK by CIL, right up to 1968.

THAT was the year that the Liberal-annointed Official Ammunition Supplier of Canada, Industries Valcartier Incorporees, took over the old CIL ammo plant, trademarks AND the market.

They put 40 types out of production overnight and destroyed existing stocks, just to keep it off the market. I had .43 Mauser and .455 Colt brass on order at the time.

All they were interested in was the Government contract for the Forces; the rest of us could go to hell and we very nearly did. Thank God for Remington, Winchester and Federal; IVI would not even sell .308W to Canadians.

GONE: .22WRF. .22RS, .22R, .22WRA, .25RF, .25 Stevens, .32 RF Short, .32 RF Long, .38 RF Short, .38 RF Long, ........ how many more do you want? The .43 Mauser was selling better than it had been for 30 years (it was receiving notrice in the US gun press). It went. So did the ICI link: Kynoch ammo in their complete range, including .405W, .35W, .577 Snider, .577/.450 MH and everything from .450 Alex Henry to .600 Nitro. Canadians were left with .30-30 for hunting; even .303 was not reintroduced for a year. GONE were .25-35, .25 Remington, .30 Remington, .32 Remington and 20 MORE. The ONLY handgun round available to civilians was .38 Special with the 148-grain WC Match bullet.

THEN the quality started to take a nosedive.... until I smartened them up with a newspaper article. They tried to sue me for telling the truth. Their own lab told them that I was right..... with the brass that I sent to them, brass that they made which had FAILED.

We had it SO much better when CIL was running the show: good ammo (best in the world, many said) and a RAFT of types that were available nowhere else. And CIL made MONEY on all those obsolete rounds. IVI just could not be bothered; they had the Government contracts sewn up........ until the US refused to buy the stuff and the RCMP stopped using it and our own troops were losing morale because they KNEW the stuff was junk.

They have smartened up a BIT, but we are still a very long way behind where we were, 45 years ago.

I believe that a Manufcturing permit runs $5000 a year.

This country does not WANT domestic manufacturing of ammunition.... or of almost anything else.

Best bet is to persuade Aguila or CBC to make what you want, import and sell.

It's The Canadian Way, y'know.
 
smellie said:
ALL the calibres you guys are talking about were produced or imported from the UK by CIL, right up to 1968.

THAT was the year that the Liberal-annointed Official Ammunition Supplier of Canada, Industries Valcartier Incorporees, took over the old CIL ammo plant, trademarks AND the market.

They put 40 types out of production overnight and destroyed existing stocks, just to keep it off the market. I had .43 Mauser and .455 Colt brass on order at the time.

All they were interested in was the Government contract for the Forces; the rest of us could go to hell and we very nearly did. Thank God for Remington, Winchester and Federal; IVI would not even sell .308W to Canadians.

GONE: .22WRF. .22RS, .22R, .22WRA, .25RF, .25 Stevens, .32 RF Short, .32 RF Long, .38 RF Short, .38 RF Long, ........ how many more do you want? The .43 Mauser was selling better than it had been for 30 years (it was receiving notrice in the US gun press). It went. So did the ICI link: Kynoch ammo in their complete range, including .405W, .35W, .577 Snider, .577/.450 MH and everything from .450 Alex Henry to .600 Nitro. Canadians were left with .30-30 for hunting; even .303 was not reintroduced for a year. GONE were .25-35, .25 Remington, .30 Remington, .32 Remington and 20 MORE. The ONLY handgun round available to civilians was .38 Special with the 148-grain WC Match bullet.

THEN the quality started to take a nosedive.... until I smartened them up with a newspaper article. They tried to sue me for telling the truth. Their own lab told them that I was right..... with the brass that I sent to them, brass that they made which had FAILED.

We had it SO much better when CIL was running the show: good ammo (best in the world, many said) and a RAFT of types that were available nowhere else. And CIL made MONEY on all those obsolete rounds. IVI just could not be bothered; they had the Government contracts sewn up........ until the US refused to buy the stuff and the RCMP stopped using it and our own troops were losing morale because they KNEW the stuff was junk.

They have smartened up a BIT, but we are still a very long way behind where we were, 45 years ago.

I believe that a Manufcturing permit runs $5000 a year.

This country does not WANT domestic manufacturing of ammunition.... or of almost anything else.

Best bet is to persuade Aguila or CBC to make what you want, import and sell.

It's The Canadian Way, y'know.
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Wow,

I had no idea about any of this. I will have to go read some more.

Thank you sir!
 
I didnt know the back-story either. I just thought all those rounds got dropped because they were no longer selling.

Smellie, do you have that article you mentioned? IIRC, you used to write for a newspaper?
 
Musketfire you should just go for it. Lots of guys dream of starting a small business but never do it. Will take lots of startup capital and not many banks would be willing to back a firearms related business these days.
 
I was the Editor of "The Pilot", the weekly newspaper operated by the rb Group in Newfoundland for 4 years. While I was with the paper, we took 14 ACNA awards for journalistic excellence, 13 in one year: a record never beaten or even equalled. Not bad for an office with only 2-1/2 writers. I still have the award for the best editorial in 4 provinces. Later, I edited the "Gopher Creek Chronicle" locally. I have contributed to a variety of papers and magazines, including "Guns Review" from London (UK) and was a Contributing Editor for the original NFA Bulletin, many years ago, back when it was being run by John Perrocchio and John Cameron in Ottawa.

The article which I mentioned was published (IIRC) in the Fall of 1980 or 1981 and was called "Don't Blow Up Your Gun!" I had pneumonia at the time I wrote it and was running a helluvva fever, so one factual error (composition of cartridge brass) crept in. The article was printed in 11 rb newspapers and was pirated (and I could care less) in Nova Scotia. Contacting the rb group (Robinson-Blackmore Printing and Publishing in Grand Falls, Nfld.) would be the fastest way to get a copy. It was in the Gander Beacon, Grand Falls Advertiser, Clarenville Packet, the Coaster and half a dozen others. SOMEBODY will have a copy. Sorry, but my own archive of my work was destroyed when the building it was in was stolen. Guy who did it is a church-goin' type, so no point prosecuting him; I can't fight God.

I used to do a gun article every year at hunting season, special features for Armistice and for Memorial Day (July 1 - The Big Push - Beaumont Hamel Day) as well as military features, including one which PO'd the entire Federal Defense Committee. Fun at times but 105 hours a week is just too much.

Hope this is some help.
 
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