Thank you!
Swiss Arms rifles being examined for reclassification?
- Thread starter prairieguy
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Thank you!
If I may, I will interject two points…
First, I have trouble believing that anyone is looking at this as anything other than a complete and outer #### up, be it the RCMP, SAN, or ourselves.
Second, supposedly JR and TSE submitted two samples that were C/A that were imported in 07/08. Would it be wrong to speculate these two rifles were in JR or TSE’s possession for some time? Possibly since 07/08? Possibly someones rifles?
First, I have trouble believing that anyone is looking at this as anything other than a complete and outer #### up, be it the RCMP, SAN, or ourselves.
Second, supposedly JR and TSE submitted two samples that were C/A that were imported in 07/08. Would it be wrong to speculate these two rifles were in JR or TSE’s possession for some time? Possibly since 07/08? Possibly someones rifles?
For real...?
redddogg69
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Burlington/ON
Is this for restricted only or NR as well? Why would the FRT be pulled because of some supposed 30rnd mags that can be easily pinned?
Dear CGN members: I write to respond to the allegations leveled by CSC against TSE.
What happened?
In early 2013 an individual walked into TSE with a rifle that appeared to the experienced eye to be either a counterfeit of the Swiss Arms “classic green”, or possibly a converted prohibited rifle.
CGN members and Swiss Arms’ owners should know that later, at IWA 2013, a Swiss Arms employee stated an owner of one of TSE’s competitors was going around Switzerland buying up rifles at auction and from ex-service members, bringing them into Swiss Arms’ factory in “batches” to be refurbished. The CEO of Swiss Arms was present at this meeting, and stated he had no knowledge of this.
Our inspection of the rifle brought to our store supported what Swiss Arms told us.
With the knowledge of these facts, the spectre was raised that Canadians may have unknowingly purchased rifles that were or are prohibited - no responsible firearms retailer could avoid contacting the RCMP, who we are sure, will clarify what the complete facts are and what is relevant.
Why was it suspected to be counterfeit or converted?
1) The 4 digit serial number was wrong for a ‘civilian’ firearm;
2) Furniture colour and texture predated anything known for retail/commercial sale
3) There was no Swiss Arms factory marking;
4) There was no commercial production marking;
5) It was missing the internal parts added to retail/commercial rifles to further prevent C/A conversions;
6) The Upper and lower very mismatched colours, indicating either re-working, or a change-out with another rifle; and
7) The spacing of the serial numbers was too large.
Basically, any experienced owner would see this was a VERY old rifle, that it appeared someone refinished the upper, and changed the serial number and name. It doesn’t matter why this was done – it looked like a Classic Green civilian accessible firearm, but may have not been intended for use in Canada.
Swiss Arms’ Practices
As a responsible gun owner and retailer, we question the soundness of Swiss Arms’ practice, but recognized Swiss Arms doesn’t “control the commercial market” in Canada. Ultimately, given the RCMP were already aware of this issue, Swiss Arms should re-think its policy, but it is not up to TSE to control imports into Canada – that is the RCMP’s and Border Control’s job. But TSE would not stand by watching Canadians inadvertently purchase rifles that may turn out later to be inappropriate for import.
Swiss Arms’ policy raises questions, and we believe Canadians are entitled to answers:
1) If the rifles are otherwise acceptable under Canadian law, why change serial numbers?
2) If the rifles are acceptable, why change the name / designation?
3) If the rifles are acceptable for sale in Canada, why were other importers not offered these firearms?
The Real Issue
In my opinion as a gun retailer with many years’ experience, CSC’s concerns are misplaced: the whole issue of whether it is “C/A or not” is a red herring. The RCMP will quickly sort this out so it is not of primary concern. Moreover, these receivers are not easy to convert. There have simply been production changes over the years that make the internals look a bit different.
The real issue comes down to the lineage of the rifles, and all Swiss Arms owners should be concerned with the possibility that old PE90s and old issued, demilled military rifles may have been brought into Canada inappropriately, or without the knowledge of their true lineage. Potentially, this could screw up the ability of everyone to enjoy the actual Classic Greens.
Clarity
The Calgary Shooting Centre claims this is just a misunderstanding. TSE is glad to hear there is an explanation, and is confident our competitors are cooperating with the RCMP.
Ultimately, the RCMP will determine whether there is any responsibility for any incorrect import or sale of firearms, and if so where that responsibility lies. TSE has no role in the investigation.
CSC claims TSE has acted wrongly, and has accused CSC of acting illegally. To be perfectly crystal clear, our understanding is that no Swiss laws were broken by anyone doing any of these things. Further, TSE has no information that CSC has broken any laws, nor has TSE ever accused CSC of doing so.
All that has happened is TSE has reported to the RCMP that certain firearms of questionable legitimacy are in Canada posing as Classic Greens, and re-finishing used military firearms for the purpose of importing them into Canada.
At the end of the day, Swiss Arms stands by their decision to sell the rifles in Canada. They have done so, however, without full regard for purchasers in the Canadian market. Purely as opinion, TSE suggests Swiss Arms has in effect thrown the Canadian market under the bus (probably inadvertently) by stating the refinished rifles are “mechanically identical” to civilian accessible rifles. It is for this reason, and due to Swiss Arms’ comments, we believe, that the RCMP is concerned with the entire lineage of these rifles.
What happens now?
At present, TSE is trying to show the RCMP there is no real harm from the non-prohibited line of rifles. While the RCMP may have recently become aware of new facts due to TSE’s being a good corporate citizen, it is Swiss Arms’ comments that gave rise to the RCMP’s scrutiny over the larger class of rifles.
Further, the RCMP previously obtained an SG540 and SG542 and were in the process of looking at the SAPR. So, their scrutiny over the Swiss Arms’ products wasn’t due to TSE’s report alone.
In a nutshell, the facts are that an organization bought old rifles that may be prohibited, renamed them, changed the history and serial numbers and then allowed them to be brought into Canada to sell as “Classic Green” civilian accessible firearms.
In our opinion, TSE did the right thing to prevent further crackdowns by the RCMP and further pressure against owners and importers of foreign rifles; if a foreign company has acted to make the RCMP scrutinize a larger class of rifles more closely, that is the RCMP’s prerogative and the foreign company’s issue
To further complicate this, the RCMP, in order to investigate the SAPR, rounded up an SG540 and SG542 and were in the process of looking at the SAPR.
The RCMP firearms officials stated during a conversation at CANSEC that now they possessed an example of the SG540, they were looking at the entire SAN family as the rifles had never been inspected at the time the FRT was issued. This was just another file on the pile, but this investigation pushed it to the forefront.
Yes, the issue is a mess. While CSC is trying to spin this as a gaffe resulting from blind hatred of CSC, the facts don’t support that. What remains the truth is that the concerns of all Swiss Arms’ owners were and still are legitimate. TSE stands by as a corporate citizen willing to assist gun-owners and the authorities for a resolution of this issue.
What happened?
In early 2013 an individual walked into TSE with a rifle that appeared to the experienced eye to be either a counterfeit of the Swiss Arms “classic green”, or possibly a converted prohibited rifle.
CGN members and Swiss Arms’ owners should know that later, at IWA 2013, a Swiss Arms employee stated an owner of one of TSE’s competitors was going around Switzerland buying up rifles at auction and from ex-service members, bringing them into Swiss Arms’ factory in “batches” to be refurbished. The CEO of Swiss Arms was present at this meeting, and stated he had no knowledge of this.
Our inspection of the rifle brought to our store supported what Swiss Arms told us.
With the knowledge of these facts, the spectre was raised that Canadians may have unknowingly purchased rifles that were or are prohibited - no responsible firearms retailer could avoid contacting the RCMP, who we are sure, will clarify what the complete facts are and what is relevant.
Why was it suspected to be counterfeit or converted?
1) The 4 digit serial number was wrong for a ‘civilian’ firearm;
2) Furniture colour and texture predated anything known for retail/commercial sale
3) There was no Swiss Arms factory marking;
4) There was no commercial production marking;
5) It was missing the internal parts added to retail/commercial rifles to further prevent C/A conversions;
6) The Upper and lower very mismatched colours, indicating either re-working, or a change-out with another rifle; and
7) The spacing of the serial numbers was too large.
Basically, any experienced owner would see this was a VERY old rifle, that it appeared someone refinished the upper, and changed the serial number and name. It doesn’t matter why this was done – it looked like a Classic Green civilian accessible firearm, but may have not been intended for use in Canada.
Swiss Arms’ Practices
As a responsible gun owner and retailer, we question the soundness of Swiss Arms’ practice, but recognized Swiss Arms doesn’t “control the commercial market” in Canada. Ultimately, given the RCMP were already aware of this issue, Swiss Arms should re-think its policy, but it is not up to TSE to control imports into Canada – that is the RCMP’s and Border Control’s job. But TSE would not stand by watching Canadians inadvertently purchase rifles that may turn out later to be inappropriate for import.
Swiss Arms’ policy raises questions, and we believe Canadians are entitled to answers:
1) If the rifles are otherwise acceptable under Canadian law, why change serial numbers?
2) If the rifles are acceptable, why change the name / designation?
3) If the rifles are acceptable for sale in Canada, why were other importers not offered these firearms?
The Real Issue
In my opinion as a gun retailer with many years’ experience, CSC’s concerns are misplaced: the whole issue of whether it is “C/A or not” is a red herring. The RCMP will quickly sort this out so it is not of primary concern. Moreover, these receivers are not easy to convert. There have simply been production changes over the years that make the internals look a bit different.
The real issue comes down to the lineage of the rifles, and all Swiss Arms owners should be concerned with the possibility that old PE90s and old issued, demilled military rifles may have been brought into Canada inappropriately, or without the knowledge of their true lineage. Potentially, this could screw up the ability of everyone to enjoy the actual Classic Greens.
Clarity
The Calgary Shooting Centre claims this is just a misunderstanding. TSE is glad to hear there is an explanation, and is confident our competitors are cooperating with the RCMP.
Ultimately, the RCMP will determine whether there is any responsibility for any incorrect import or sale of firearms, and if so where that responsibility lies. TSE has no role in the investigation.
CSC claims TSE has acted wrongly, and has accused CSC of acting illegally. To be perfectly crystal clear, our understanding is that no Swiss laws were broken by anyone doing any of these things. Further, TSE has no information that CSC has broken any laws, nor has TSE ever accused CSC of doing so.
All that has happened is TSE has reported to the RCMP that certain firearms of questionable legitimacy are in Canada posing as Classic Greens, and re-finishing used military firearms for the purpose of importing them into Canada.
At the end of the day, Swiss Arms stands by their decision to sell the rifles in Canada. They have done so, however, without full regard for purchasers in the Canadian market. Purely as opinion, TSE suggests Swiss Arms has in effect thrown the Canadian market under the bus (probably inadvertently) by stating the refinished rifles are “mechanically identical” to civilian accessible rifles. It is for this reason, and due to Swiss Arms’ comments, we believe, that the RCMP is concerned with the entire lineage of these rifles.
What happens now?
At present, TSE is trying to show the RCMP there is no real harm from the non-prohibited line of rifles. While the RCMP may have recently become aware of new facts due to TSE’s being a good corporate citizen, it is Swiss Arms’ comments that gave rise to the RCMP’s scrutiny over the larger class of rifles.
Further, the RCMP previously obtained an SG540 and SG542 and were in the process of looking at the SAPR. So, their scrutiny over the Swiss Arms’ products wasn’t due to TSE’s report alone.
In a nutshell, the facts are that an organization bought old rifles that may be prohibited, renamed them, changed the history and serial numbers and then allowed them to be brought into Canada to sell as “Classic Green” civilian accessible firearms.
In our opinion, TSE did the right thing to prevent further crackdowns by the RCMP and further pressure against owners and importers of foreign rifles; if a foreign company has acted to make the RCMP scrutinize a larger class of rifles more closely, that is the RCMP’s prerogative and the foreign company’s issue
To further complicate this, the RCMP, in order to investigate the SAPR, rounded up an SG540 and SG542 and were in the process of looking at the SAPR.
The RCMP firearms officials stated during a conversation at CANSEC that now they possessed an example of the SG540, they were looking at the entire SAN family as the rifles had never been inspected at the time the FRT was issued. This was just another file on the pile, but this investigation pushed it to the forefront.
Yes, the issue is a mess. While CSC is trying to spin this as a gaffe resulting from blind hatred of CSC, the facts don’t support that. What remains the truth is that the concerns of all Swiss Arms’ owners were and still are legitimate. TSE stands by as a corporate citizen willing to assist gun-owners and the authorities for a resolution of this issue.
Reading this all I don't understand why tse is getting blame. I don't know who or where both tse and Csc even are. But based on what I read tse did what he should have. Because if for example half these San are c/a and one day some idiot converts one back and does some shooting or Ganga bang or whatever. Guess what news report will be???? Non restricted rifle converted to auto and kills many. Where is the rcmp? Why was this allowed into Canada. Then what's next??? We can't buy ####. Tse was doing the right thing by saying hanging on something smells bad here. Now to me the f$)& head is whoever brought these in to begin with. Whoever it is I hope they get the book thrown at them. Because now all of our semi autos are at risk and on the chopping block for re evaluation. Opening a can of worms is never good.
I hope rcmp calls for a recall. And nothing more. Everyone needs to have their gun inspected. And if its illegal it should be replaced by the retailer who sold it to you. IMO every retailer should review what they are selling especially used. So if Csc sold used San that ended up being converts. Well I'm sorry Csc your the moron and not the guy who called the cops. And if allegations are true that your buying up guns at the Swiss super market and not checking them correctly. I hope you pay the price for it. If your innocent my apologies.
In my opinion if tse was doing this to get at his ex partner or not is irrelevant. Who brought this is in is what matters.
I hope rcmp calls for a recall. And nothing more. Everyone needs to have their gun inspected. And if its illegal it should be replaced by the retailer who sold it to you. IMO every retailer should review what they are selling especially used. So if Csc sold used San that ended up being converts. Well I'm sorry Csc your the moron and not the guy who called the cops. And if allegations are true that your buying up guns at the Swiss super market and not checking them correctly. I hope you pay the price for it. If your innocent my apologies.
In my opinion if tse was doing this to get at his ex partner or not is irrelevant. Who brought this is in is what matters.
This isn't a business where you can play fast and loose with the rules, it's that simple, the stakes are too high for everyone involved and for everyone else too. It seems someone (possibly in Switzerland from how this sounds) decided to take a short cut to generate profits (the Swiss Gov't doesn't pay what we pay for these rifles). The longest distance between 2 points in the firearms business is always the short cut.
This is very unfortunate for the purchasers of these rifles.
The RCMP should not have been contacted untill the manufacturer was contacted and given time to respond.
Something similar happened when Dlask arms started producing their 8" barrel shotguns with pistol grip only that were given a NR FRT, enough people called the CFC with complaints that they eventually deemed it restricted unless it had a full stock.........some people are their own worst enemy or should I say our whole hobbys enemy.
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We have been lead to believe that that rifle was deemed to not be a converted-auto and was deemed to be non-restricted, but the two rifles inspected as control samples were deemed to be converted-autos. So what gives? Where did the control samples come from? As it currently appears to me you actually had the converted-autos in the first place, which kinda negates everything you said.
I think your missing though that if this wasn't brought to the attention of rcmp and something later happened. And I vesting action came out that the industry knew but didn't notify rcmp. You realize what would have happened right? If rcmp has possession of two converts that's pretty bad. If tse was just being a #### and getting after his old partner fine that's a #### move. But in the end if we have many converts out there it's a good thing it happened. Because rcmp may be more likely to work with us on CORRECTING the issue rather then removing them period.
I dunno maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why tse is getting the finger pointed. If and I said if Csc was bringing in illegal guns you can't be mad at the guy who ratted on them. Again if Csc did do this they put us all and our guns in jeopardy. If it was San then they screwed over there own business and again should pay for the recalls and replacements. Unfortunately this all has opened up a storm and may very well end the guns non restricted run.
so giving SAN time to respond is not an option to you? It sounds like the two C/A rifles have been in possesion of TSE since 2008.....how is a couple weeks gonna hurt.
Now we are looking at confiscation, you really think anyone with a C/A is going to get to keep their rifle or be reimbursed for it? there is potentially hundreds if not thousands in country.
Yes gangbangers like to run 3k+ rifles right? Gimme a break they run the cheapest #### they can find, how many gang wars have you seen them using top drawer rifles like these? Again like I said about any major organized crime syndicate, They can bring in ak74s, augs, fals, scars or any other prohib rifle you wish to mention, prohibing the swiss wont slow anything down for them
My question is how come swiss wasn't asked anything before this went to rcmp? Why werent they given an opportunity to to explain themselves or to replace these rifles?
I hear you 100%. Tse was a bit trigger happy. But I think rcmp can be smart about this and give San the ultimatums. Correct the recalled guns or your business stops in Canada. If San says screw Canada. Then quite honestly we have no one to blame but them. But I still think if this is the case and they are converts. And something happened later we would loose all our semis not just the San.
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