Swiss arms / SAN rifles FAQ

[wildphil24]

I'm new to the SAN rifles but I had a little difficulty finding info on it at first. Also many thread are actually asking the same questions lately (rifling, green vs black, etc.) This is a stickie proposal. Others certainly know more than me to complete.

History: Swiss arms rifles were designed in 1970. Produced since 1986.
USA variants are made by Sig Sauer in the US. For once, it seems we have the best.

Swiss arms reputation: Might be the best military rifle in the world. Extreme reliability, sweet trigger, smooth action, etc.
A bit heavier than some opponents.

Importer: FN sports. Sometimes CIE Canada.
Many dealers to buy or order from.

Black or green in the model name: there's no difference other than the receiver's and gas block color. Green is grey.

Black or green furniture: Black on black models, black or dark green on green model.
Basic buttstock model is folding to the right side. Cheek-rest available.
The long models (non-restricted) have a folding bipod integrated in the handguard.

Caliber: Actually all are .223. European spec, good for 5,56Nato too.
They start to build some .308 in Europe...

Rifling twist: 1-10" or 1-7". It's not marked on the barrel or manual. Use your cleaning-rod with a piece of tape to measure the lenght for a full rotation.
1-10 is best for 40-63gr.
1-7 is best for 55-80gr.

Ambidextrous: safety and mag release.
Right-handed but not too bad for lefties: charging handle, bolt release and ejection (2 o'clock).
Right-handed only: 2 of the 3 sling attachment point.

Magazine: Rugged SAN proprietary mags. Polymer made. Built-in clamping points. Available 5 rounds, 5/20 and 5/30.
Good clones available from Canadaammo.

Accessories: Good cheek-rest clone available from Canadaammo.
Brugger thomet makes many good accessories, a bit expensive.
Genuine accessories are available with dealers like Wolverine, pretty expensive.

Sights: Hooded front sight, a little large for precision, it's an infantry rifle.
Great diopter rear sight drum, turn for 100m, 200, 300 or 400m.
Attachment points for a scope rail.
Rarely you can find a standard model with a flat-top receiver. The folding sights and integral rail allow much lower scope-mount.

Price: All models are 3200-3300$, except the sniper model: 5000-6000$ ?

Marking: At 5 places you should find the serial last 4-digit and that sign: "NB (inside a reticle) 09"
09 means it was made in 2009. NB "Neuhausen Beschuss" means it was made in the town of Neuhausen, Switzerland where SAN Swiss Arms is located. Beschuss means proof for the rifle testing.
That's on the bolt carrier, bolt, barrel and the left side of the upper and lower halves.

Models:
Sniper model
25.6" heavy barrel with no flash-hider
Non-restricted

Classic green / Black special
20.78" barrel with flash-hider
Non-restricted

Charging handle is always on the right with the ejection port, the top picture was mirrored.

Classic green carbine
17.87" barrel
Restricted

Optional flat-top

Black special Carbine
14.29" barrel
Restricted

with optional rails

Classic green CQB
9" barrel
Restricted

SAPR 751
.308 model
Yet to come to Canada

See post #22 for details of the internals, function and features.

 

[CanAm]

The 550 series was based on the improved 540, the 541.

 

[angryeyebrows]

Classic green carbine
17.87" barrel
Restricted

optional flat-top

looks like a 552 LB or CQB Long Barrel (13.6"), NOT a 17.9" barrel carbine.

 

[john@]

Civilian models have the PE designation, PE 57, PE 90 etc...

History: Swiss arms rifles were designed in 1970. Produced since 1986.
Military models are PE90.

 

[alexD92]

Found it!

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383058

I've noticed that there are lots of Swiss Arms threads on this board. Most have no pictures. Most involve a lot of bickering between the same core group of bickerers. Few, if any, have any pics of the internal workings of the rifles. I put this together for Swiss Arms newbies, people who are thinking about buying one, or who are just interested in having a look at these rifles for themselves. That and that fact that, I don't find the black and white photos in the armorers manuals online all that great.

My Swiss looks like this. Carbine with 14.3 inch barrel. That is a 20/5 round mag.

The rifle has a rotary diopter rear sight with 4 settings. The one shown is the shortest range sight. The other three settings are peep sights for various distances. One of them can be seen on the left.

The stock folds onto the right side of the reciever by pushing this button on the left side:

The button is directly opposite the hinge on the right side:

The folded stock clicks into a "pin" on right side of the lower handguard (a plastic bump), unlike the folding stock on a VZ58 (which locks up at either end of it's range of movement - completely open or completely closed - and is unlocked by a button on the bottom).

Field stripping the rifle gets it down to this. I'm going to refer to these pieces as the upper and lower reciever. Upper and lower handguard. Gas tube and piston. Bolt, bolt carrier and charging handle. Magazine. The small piece sitting at the end of the gas tube is called the "gas regulator". It is what locks the gas tube and piston together at the front of the gun.

Opposite side:

The way the upper and lower receiver seperate is not much different from an AR15 - although you push the pins from the right to unlock them, and then push them out from the left:

A close-up of the hammer, which is forward in this picture:

An attempt to get a look inside the upper reciever. Notice my lovely hockey tape brass deflector:

You can get a lot better look in there from the back. The top hole is where the gas tube locks into the reciever:

The outside of the upper reciever looks like this. You can also get a pretty good idea of how the Kyle rail attaches from this shot:

Where the gas tube locks in on the front looks like this. You can see the gas ports to some extent. This shows the two front sight posts as well. The big (short range) one is up here. It folds down. Notice also that the flash hider is part of the barrel. It is threaded on the inside. While it should have six openings to be symetrical, the one on the bottom is missing (acts as a bit of a muzzle break). The loop on the side is for a sling. The loop on the bottom is not a bayonet lug, but it is where the bayonet lug would fit in if you installed one. The Swiss really built a lot of details into these.

The bolt and bolt carrier together look like this:

From the other side:

From the front:

Unlike a VZ58 or many other piston rifles, the piston has a recoil spring around it. So, unlike an AR or something like that, there is no spring behind the bolt carrier. There is nothing behind the bolt carrier at all. The bolt and bolt carrier get locked together with the piston by the charging handle. During firing, the piston (which rides inside the gas tube) pushes the bolt carrier back (well, it is attached to it) and the spring pulls everything back forward. This is quite a bit different than something like a VZ58 where the piston simply pushes the bolt carrier back, and a spring behind the bolt carrier pushes it back forward.

The piston (with recoil spring around it) locked together with the bolt and bolt carrier by means of the charging handle:

And here is a close up. One of the main parts of field stripping the gun is taking the charging handle out, so that the bolt carrier unlocks from the piston and can slide backwards out of the reciever. The way this is done is by pushing down on this little lever. It is sort of a spring loaded "teeter totter" bar. When you push it down with your thumb, you can pull the charging handle straight out and everything unlocks.

So, for those of you who are new to these rifles, I hope this helps explain them a bit more - and encourages you to get out and buy one. They are amazing pieces of engineering and - more importantly - amazing firearms.

 

[alexD92]

OP needs to fix up his stats. the SAN has more then just one "stock" available. There's the standard, the sniper adjustable stock, telescopic stock and the AR stock adapter.

black special carbine:

Canada Ammo also got us the ever so awesome and cheap Dominion Arms mags for the SAN line of rifles.

5/30 rounds in 3 different shades. Black, smoked and clear.

 

[Brainless]

The Sniper Variant barrel length is 25.6", or 650mm.

 

[alexD92]

Depends how you want to sling the rifle. But when looking at the rifle, sling mounting points are not lefty friendly. Imo, your best bet would be to tie some para-cord at the points you want and attaching your sling to the para-cord.

Something like this guy maybe.

Had a day off and went to the gunshop to get my Carbine fixed. (broken firing pin)

Left with one of those new collapsible for my 551LB.

Can't wait to give it a try on the range tomorrow

 

[alexD92]

Maybe this could help.

http://www.swissarms.ch/fileadmin/editor/downloads/manuals/SG552_manual_GB.pdf

 

[J996]

Gentlemen:

If you could help me out, I am taking my first steps into the Swiss arms area.

With out trying to sound like a dumb a$$, could some one direct me as to how one slings a rifle, say a Classic Green, for a left handed shooter.

Thank you in advance.

regards

AbH

To elaborate on alexD's excellent paracord suggestion: Galil sling loops with 550 cord. IDF tested and approved Cheap and it works.

 

[USP]

Somebody should post some pics of the Blue Star, Red Devil and the Heavy Metal versions.

 

[beltfed]

The fail is strong in this thread.
Stickies should hold relevant, factual info and get flushed of the clutter, imho.
Is there a Moderator that can (or would like to?) clean this thread up, put all of the proper info up at the beginning of the thread and nuke all of the superfluous crap? (hey no offence, mine included).

Regarding the barrels, there are a number of versions of the 1:7 twist barrels out there, some marked (nato trials iirc) and some have the same civilian markings as the stock 1:10s. Not 100% on this info, but that is my understanding.
The two photos below show the 1:7 twist (a Nato trial version) compared to the standard 1:10s most come with (top one in the photo being the 1:7).
-The flash eliminator on both are machined as part of the barrel.(as mentioned)
-The inside of the 1:7 barrel is threaded, the 1:10 is not.
-In addition to the threading, the Nato barrel has a slightly longer flash eliminator. (now, as these are machined as part of the barrel, I have seen slight variation in design and size going from the 14" nominal and 20" nom. barrels. - so I'm not sure this is a truism. The other thing to consider is their point of manufacture. I don't have enough info on that, but I have heard that all of their barrels are not manufactured in the same place. Someone like James B. of CIE should weigh in with his knowledge on the subject).
-The different bayonet lugs can be seen with the Swiss one being on the civilian barrel and the Nato lug on the 1:7.

The below photos show the stock adapter for AR stocks. I believe there were two versions manufactured, one with the folding latch and one without. I believe these were brought in by TSE, but do not know of their origin or current availability.

Please feel free to use the info as you like to augment your sticky and then ko this post.

 

[Gundoggy]

All the swissarms rifles tend to have a bit of 'wiggle' in the handguards and between the upper and lower receiver. It does not affect performance.

For slings, I bought some 1" Alligator/HK style hooks for my Viking tactics Sling. When I bought a 1.25" wide vickers sling, I just cut the tactical sling that came with the gun to get the hooks and used those. Works just fine and compared to the Viking or Vickers sling the SAN sling sucks.

 

[Danimal247]

anyone know if the 5/30 swiss mags will fit into mag pouches designed for ar mags? thinking about getting some 5.11 mag pouches, not sure if they will work properly and or if i should get the double stack or single stack ones

 

[Airborn_69]

anyone know if the 5/30 swiss mags will fit into mag pouches designed for ar mags? thinking about getting some 5.11 mag pouches, not sure if they will work properly and or if i should get the double stack or single stack ones

No, AR mag pouches a re too tight in fit, you'll have to get some G36/Sig mag pouches for a proper, looser fit.

Dropzone makes them & a few outfit in the US.

 

[Airborn_69]

Actually I got a generic question to this thread that I'm sure everyone uncontiously is asking why....

Why can't SIG/Swiss Arms barrels be cut?

 

[koldt]

Actually I got a generic question to this thread that I'm sure everyone uncontiously is asking why....

Why can't SIG/Swiss Arms barrels be cut?

What is "uncontiously"?

But yes, you can cut a SIG barrel. Still a LOT of other questions to go with that, but the simple answer is, yes.

 

[Airborn_69]

What is "uncontiously"?

But yes, you can cut a SIG barrel. Still a LOT of other questions to go with that, but the simple answer is, yes.

I see I unconsciously screwed that one up

Thanks for the info....more to come I'm sure

 

[koldt]

I see I unconsciously screwed that one up

Thanks for the info....more to come I'm sure

With cutting the barrel, I guess the one of the questions is, for what reason? I had that thought about taking the long barrel and cutting it to 18.5" to still retain the non-restricted aspect. As there are a variety of barrel lengths offered by the manufacturer, there wouldn't really be any reason to cut a factory barrel. If a guy was to cut a 20" into an 18.5 do you still want to retain a flash hider, etc. Either way, I think with the SIG system, it's best not to cut as there wouldn't be any real advantage. However if you have another reason or need, please let us know, and we can make a better informed comment.

 

[Airborn_69]

This was discussed with Angryeyebrows, I guess for the minimilist 1lbs less to the front, barrel shortened by 2 inches could bring the front heavy PE90 more Carbine like, would be worthwhile, for most with cost & labour included and putting a A2 flashhider it is not worth losing the extra weight thus going the restricted Carbine route if you don't mind paying $750+ for an 18.5'' carbine profile barrel.

Is it worth the hassle? No. Is it the perfect Carbine, No. I find it a bit long.

But there are a few perfectionist that would think differently. Personally I love my Swiss as is & don't mind the weight, I've removed the factory bipod, added an ACOG and am very satisfied with the balance.