Swiss arms / SAN rifles FAQ

Just got my Nightforce Ultralight Unimount for my scope and went to test mount it on my Black Special Target. Lousy having to find-out the hard way that the rails on the Black Special Targets aren't close to Mil-Spec. It fits like a dream on my LMT rails so it's not just me.

I haven't torqued it to spec but it looks like I'm probably going to have to live with my scope slightly offset (on a linear axis) and not the least bit charmed about it.


Can some of you lads with scopes on your Black Special Targets offer a bit of reassurance to a n00b here please? Are you guys dealing with a slight offset to the right (a millimeter or two) when your scopes/mounts are mounted due to the out-of-spec rails on these rifles? Am I doing something wrong here, is it just something we have to live with or are there certain products (rings/mounts) that can compensate for and accommodate out of spec rails better than others? I've only ever dealt with Mil-Spec rails on ARs when it comes to mounting scopes/mounts so this out-of-spec rail thing is brand new to me. Would sure appreciate some comments on this and thanks very much in advance. Best regards.
 
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With my crude instruments (small metric ruler) the gap widths and center to center measurements are basically Mil. Std. but the width of the rail is greater. I suppose it is a Picatinny rail by definition but the rails are markedly wider than Mil-spec. I hate finding stuff like this out the hard way, did a bunch of research on these guns before I bought them and didn't see a word about this anywhere. Not a word.

The B&T rails sold for Black Specials (with diopter sights) are also out-of-spec but not as badly as the Target's welded-on unit. For what is essentially a $4K gun, the rails on the Targets are simply crude.

Even a couple of Swiss Arms Catalogs I've seen call the rails on the Target models "Mil. Std. 1913" which is BS in terms of being a Mil-spec. rail and wide open to misinterpretation.

Hopefully this will be helpful to others.
 
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Looking for a cheek riser for my Swiss PE90/Black Special ...

Hope Im not posting in the wrong section .. if so I apologise...

Would anyone know where I could find a cheek riser like in the http://www.swissrifles.com/sig550/index.html on the 552 Commando mid-page ???

Much apreciated .. thanks.

/Mark
 
Not Long said:
With my crude instruments (small metric ruler) the gap widths and center to center measurements are basically Mil. Std. but the width of the rail is greater. I suppose it is a Picatinny rail by definition but the rails are markedly wider than Mil-spec. I hate finding stuff like this out the hard way, did a bunch of research on these guns before I bought them and didn't see a word about this anywhere. Not a word.

The B&T rails sold for Black Specials (with diopter sights) are also out-of-spec but not as badly as the Target's welded-on unit. For what is essentially a $4K gun, the rails on the Targets are simply crude.

Even a couple of Swiss Arms Catalogs I've seen call the rails on the Target models "Mil. Std. 1913" which is BS in terms of being a Mil-spec. rail and wide open to misinterpretation.

Hopefully this will be helpful to others.
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Will someone who knows whats going on please help this guy???? Kamphamster?? Shooting Edge?? I have never heard of an issue like his before with a Swiss and I want to say he must be wrong, but I don't know cause I don't have flat-top and haven't seen his rails. In my experience the B&T Rails are in spec, at least the 3 different ones I have owned were.

I would normally think the rail is exactly the way the Swiss wanted it to be wether that is mil-spec or not I have no idea but I highly doubt that it is "Crude", the QC on these rifles is typically quite high, but I haven't seen the rifle so I can't speak too much.
 
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I have a Black Special Target flat-top. I ran into an issue when I was running a Larue mount under my ACOG. The Larue mount doesn't have a full width lug under the mount and it was sliding around on the rail under recoil. The rail itself has a slot milled down the center that was just wide enough to let the lug on the mount slide backwards. I ditched the Larue and bought a GG&G mount (which is awesome by the way) and have no more issues. It does seem to me that the rail is not exactly the same as others I have seen. I am at work here now so I can't measure, but I will if you haven't solved anything by the time I am back.

I wouldn't call the rail crude persay as it works just fine for me, but as mentioned I did have a rail issue. Hope this helps a bit.
 
Well alright, maybe crude was a bit harsh...

Thanks Steve but I don't need any help other than to hear from others who've experienced less than ideal fitment of true Mil-spec hardware on these rails. There's nothing one can do about it but live with it and enjoy it.

The rail is straight and level, it's just wider than Mil-spec. among other things I suspect. I've put a fairly precision-engineered Nightforce unimount on a true Mil-spec rail and then put it on the Target, if you do the same you'll see what I mean if you have any attention to detail whatsoever. Take a screw gauge and measure the full rail width on an LMT or Daniel Defense or any other true Mil-spec rail and then measure the rail width on the Target. See what I mean..? I thought so. ;)

It's not a huge deal, it just is what it is. My mount will work fine with about a 1+mm offset and my Elcan works great on my B&T rail. Before I sold my AR I put my American Defense Recon on both rails and it didn't mind the B&T at all and worked with the Target's rail after adjustment. Things will work on the rail but precision machined hardware was not designed and is not made to be offset intentionally.

I only post my experience so that perhaps if anyone in the future wants to put a $300 precision mount or fancy rings on a $4k gun, they won't be surprised and disappointed when it doesn't altogether fit as it's designed to.

I'd be interested if anyone with a target and the appropriate measuring instruments could compare their rail's measurements to true Mil-spec. and post their findings just for kicks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M1913A_Rail_CrossSection.svg

Thanks for your comments yukoncoyote!
 
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I find it odd that a high quality Swiss rifle has an issue with mounting optics. There must be a mount it was designed to work with. Maybe some people who own one can chime in on what they use to mount optics.
 
Jerek said:
I find it odd that a high quality Swiss rifle has an issue with mounting optics. There must be a mount it was designed to work with. Maybe some people who own one can chime in on what they use to mount optics.
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There is not an issue necessarily with mounting optics, you can probably put any picatinny mounting devise on the rail. The issue is simply with the out-of-spec nature of the rail and subsequent small variance in fit (or lack thereof) depending on what one mounts.
 
Can't seem to find any info on the details dealing with building a striped NEA lower. Was going to have TSE do it,but they don't have anyone to do it right now. So, where could I find a tutorial, and are there any special tools I need vs working with a standard ar15 lower?
 
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Mark978 said:
Can't seem to find any info on the details dealing with building a striped NEA lower. Was going to have TSE do it,but they don't have anyone to do it right now. So, where could I find a tutorial, and are there any special tools I need vs working with a standard ar15 lower?
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PM me your email and I'll send you the armourer's manual. It contains detailed instructions on stripping the lower and reassembly. Note that the channel for the bolt catch spring is too shallow on the NEA lower. Replace the OEM spring with a disposable cigarette lighter spring cut to size and it will function properly.

No special tools required. Just a small hammer, a soft-faced punch and a multi-tool will be all you need.
 
How do the swiss army sling their rifles?

I've been asked this question countless times, so I best put the answer in here.

ordonnanz.jpg


ordonnanz2.jpg


ordonnanz3.jpg


A few units use the Kastinger sling (a small french company). Its very good and way better then the normal one. It's hard to get though.

553xu.jpg
 
Kampfhamster said:
A few units use the Kastinger sling (a small french company). Its very good and way better then the normal one. It's hard to get though.

553xu.jpg
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That sling looks like it works similar to the sling I have on My Swiss Rifle.

IMGA0011-2_zpse799b6ac.jpg


I actually saw that picture of your sling long ago and used it to emulate the one I have found I have found. It's a Grey Ghost 2 Point Sling
 
Hey, does anyone know if there are any dealers still importing these things? I've been trying to find a non-restricted 1:7 CG (with no advertising on it) for the better part of a few years here now and have recently found that none of the traditional dealers have any in stock. What's more, some of them don't even list themselves as selling any Swiss Arms products anymore!

Can we no longer get these units in Canada, or do we just have to wait 6 months for the proverbial crates to clear customs? Gotta say, I've noticed it's next to impossible to find a new CZ 858 around anywhere as well. Just doesn't seem right to me - especially this time of year...
 
Kampfhamster said:
@Steve Janes: very interesting. I'll look into that. Maybe its an alternative for the hard to get Kastinger.
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It's basically a padded Vicker style sling with some really tough bungee in it in several places. I know Grey Ghost and Tactical Tailor are different companies, but there owned by the same people and their products produced at the same factory. Now Tactical Tailor did a huge order of chest rigs once for the Canadian Forces battle group headed to Afghanistan, so perhaps if you contacted them you and a bunch of guys could do a big group buy.

I got mine for $30-$40 (Canadian) from DS Tactical, under the name Grey Ghost 2 point sling. Not sure how much stock they have.
 
Siggy Stardust said:
Hey, does anyone know if there are any dealers still importing these things? I've been trying to find a non-restricted 1:7 CG (with no advertising on it) for the better part of a few years here now and have recently found that none of the traditional dealers have any in stock. What's more, some of them don't even list themselves as selling any Swiss Arms products anymore!

Can we no longer get these units in Canada, or do we just have to wait 6 months for the proverbial crates to clear customs? Gotta say, I've noticed it's next to impossible to find a new CZ 858 around anywhere as well. Just doesn't seem right to me - especially this time of year...
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There was a Black Special 1:7 barrel and a Classic Green with the same (if I'm not mistaken) for sale at Wolverine for a few weeks. The Classic Green sold just last week and I believe the Black Special the week before. There's a new Carbine each at Epps and at TSE but you want NR...

You need to keep your eyes open because they don't last long.
 
Kampfhamster said:
How do the swiss army sling their rifles?

I've been asked this question countless times, so I best put the answer in here.

ordonnanz.jpg


ordonnanz2.jpg


ordonnanz3.jpg


A few units use the Kastinger sling (a small french company). Its very good and way better then the normal one. It's hard to get though.

553xu.jpg
Click to expand...

Always wondered what was with the paracord sling setup other than having some paracord on hand for the bajillion uses that paracord can perform when needed. Can you share some insight on this Kampfhamster?
 
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