SxS: Do you walk with it open?

Longwalker said:
Straightshooter, we can agree that not relying on a mechanical safety is sensible. Muzzle control, trigger control and awareness of surroundings is most important. All guns should be treated as if they are ready to fire. Good for you that you've never had an accidental discharge. Yet. But to refuse to use a safety because it is somehow "more safe" without using it is circular logic that is completely bass ackwards.
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Still have not had an AD. However, last Saturday, hunting in a party of 3, the least experienced of the group had an accidental discharge. We had just stepped onto the property, when he asked if the safety is off in the forward position or in the rearward position. I replied that it's off when pushed into the forward position. Then, BANG!, the gun went off.

This occurred with a relatively inexperienced shooter (although this certainly wasn't his first day in the uplands) using an AYA SxS. After this happened, we spent 20 minutes trying to recreate the event. Needless to say, we weren't entirely comfortable that the gun was in good mechanical condition, after that happened. So, I tried every possible combination and sequence of actions with that AYA, in an effort to see if the safety would fail again, but it didn't. Since all of us hunt loaded and cocked with the safety off, and since muzzle control gives us the assurance we need, we went ahead with the hunt with him still carrying the AYA. At the first rest break he emphatically said, "Boy am I glad the barrels were aimed in a safe direction!" To which I replied, " Me, too. But you wouldn't be here hunting with us if we ever saw you lose awareness of your muzzles."

For those of you who rely on safeties, take note of the fact that this occurred at the instant the safety was switched off. I know of another incident (albeit 25 years ago) when a shotgun discharged when the hunter switched the safety back on. Both incidents involved switching the safety.

I learned later that the AYA had been stored in a de-cocked state. That is to say, both barrels fired on snap caps to release the mainsprings, then the forend and barrels removed to allow removal of the snap caps and the gun reassembled in the de-cocked state for storage. I've made a mental note to try that a few times to see if that's the sequence that enabled the discharge. Either way, I will be offering to disassemble the gun for cleaning and inspection. This is a decent quality SxS, not a POS. If it can happen like this, it can happen to any gun.

It all serves to reinforce my conviction - muzzle control, muzzle, control, muzzle control! Nothing else is 100%.
 
time4t said:
Glad that nobody got hurt this time. No such thing as an accidental discharge- it is either a negligent discharge or an unintentional discharge.
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If you feel more comfortable with the term unintentional discharge, I'm good with that, although I see little difference between accidental discharge and unintentional discharge. I use the AD term because that is the term most often used and understood (not necessarily the most accurate).

time4t said:
Note that with some firearms that malfunction,-pulling the trigger with the safety on then later releasing the safety makes a bang.
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I tried that dozens of times, sometimes several times in succession, other times with a variety of other actions in between tries. Every possible combination of actions was tried in every possible order (except fully de-cocking the receiver first - a move that was not going to be done in the field). The gun performed flawlessly for the whole day and, thanks to our emphasis on muzzle awareness, no one felt unsafe.

Having said this, I would recommend those with less experience don't emulate our approach.

time4t said:
Continuing to hunt with the firearm after a "suspect incident" with no clear indication of actual causation was a poor decision. Remediation would be inspection by a competent gunsmith; and a full review of the shooters skills with the specific firearm.
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I am a competent gunsmith. What I am NOT is a commercial gunsmith. That is to say, I do not operate a business (not interested in the headaches or the deadlines).

One of the issues with firearms is that often necessary repairs are not economically viable - the cost of paying a commercial gunsmith to affect repairs exceeds the value of the gun, or is prohibitive to the owner. This results in many good firearms going unused and eventually being sold for scrap or parts. I've been at this for 55 years at this point and I enjoy the work (repairs as well as refinishing). I work on my own guns, those that I find selling cheap because they're broken, or those belonging to friends and relatives. Being retired, I have the luxury of time. I don't care how many days or weeks a job takes, only that it is done right. And, as I am intimately familiar with the owners of any guns I work on, I get to follow them for years after working on them. This gives me insight into the durability of various actions, parts, and repairs.

Flintlock guns using black powder are far more volatile than modern designs, yet all manner of people with varying levels of experience managed to use them successfully for decades. I reject the anti-gun thesis that guns kill people. Guns are inanimate objects - people kill people (sometimes employing guns, unfortunately). Vehicles inflict horrific carnage on innocent people, yet any idiot can get a driver's license. Fear of firearms is irrational. Not understanding the penultimate importance of muzzle awareness is irrational.
 
Falconflyer said:
I understand what your saying and for the most part I agree. I ride motorbikes, fly airplanes, ride horses, hunt, fish, like volatile women and live in a town that likes to flood,
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Thanks for the morning laugh!
- Personally, whether women or firearms, I can do without the ones that can go off half-cocked :p

Only time I'll ever walk with a open/loaded SxS is if there's a bunch of us clobbered together and it's hard to maintain safe muzzle control.
- Other than that, it's action closed, loaded, safety on.

Over the years, the only safety on a firearm that I didn't trust, was one of the C1 SMG :runaway:...
 
time4t said:
If some of the behaviour promoted in this thread were to be present during my firearms / range safety training sessions; it would be shut down immediately. During an exam, practical firing exercise or a match; if so demonstrated; there would be an immediate fail, dq, or club dismissal. 'nuff said.
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"nuff said" ... no not really, please elaborate.

I don't think anyone is promoting anything as much as they're just answering a question.
 
Falconflyer said:
I was wondering when someone would actually read what I wrote..... your welcome sillymike! :)
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Used to work with a bunch of lovely-volatile Italian/Spanish/Greek/Chinese women... But I could never bring myself to go on a date with one of their Italian/Spanish/Greek/Chinese friends.
- On the Hot-Crazy matrix, they were way too close to the danger-zone-girl-named-Tiffany.

Back on topic, the only time I'll walk around with a open/unloaded shotguns, would be when the hunt is over and I'm walking back to camp.

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The only other "exception" I can think of, was hunting with a Greener GP that didn't have a safety, it would be round in the chamber/action open and thumb holding the shell in place. Action would get closed while shouldering to shoot.
 
time4t said:
If some of the behaviour promoted in this thread were to be present during my firearms / range safety training sessions; it would be shut down immediately. During an exam, practical firing exercise or a match; if so demonstrated; there would be an immediate fail, dq, or club dismissal. 'nuff said.
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I also shoot in competition. That is a completely different kettle of fish. In International Trap, for example, actions remain open at all times, except when it's your turn to shoot. Shells are not allowed in the chambers except when standing at a station and, again, actions continue to remain open until your turn. On the fifth station, if you hit the target with the first shot, you must open the action, remove the remaining shell, and turn to your right (away from the shooting line) as you exit the station. Failure to follow these rules can result in a penalty or disqualification.

The difference is that competitions take place in a closed environment, often with complete strangers. Other competitors, in my opinion, are often lackadaisical with their gun safety. For example, many shooters show no respect for muzzle direction when their guns are not loaded. In my book, all guns are always treated as loaded. I sometimes feel less safe at a competition than hunting in the field.

When we hunt, we don't follow each other single file like a platoon out on patrol. Nor do we all try to stay close to a dog to "shoot over the dog". Rather, we spread out approximately 75 yards apart. With a dog working the area in front of us and off to the two sides, we are positioned so that one of the hunters should have a shot at any birds that are flushed. Maintaining these approximate distances (give or take depending on cover, contours and bush) puts pressure on hard-sitting birds, as they think they are being surrounded. At these distances, only shooting directly at one another would be likely to result in pellets hitting anyone. The birds bust cover hard and fast. Only rarely does one sit hard enough for the dog to go on point. All of this suits us just fine, since we especially enjoy wingshooting, which is what we get 90% of the time.
 
time4t said:
A poster has gone on about having hunted for 50 years without incident using his firearm in condition zero( loaded- chambered -safety off); then spoke to a discharge event recently in his hunting party that was of unknown causation- malfunction? / negligent? In the most basic of terms -the practice of carrying a firearm in condition zero: loaded- chambered- safety off- is highly dangerous and any attempts to rationalize it as being safer to carry condition -zero rather than condition- 1(loaded- chambered -safety on) are delusional, and may border on careless use of a firearm. Condition- zero is intended for the transition to discharge when the firearm is on target- and the shooter is reaching for the trigger to fire. Period and done.
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Is that a fact? So, when game flushes, you reach for the trigger with your forefinger while simultaneously switching off the safety with your thumb? All the while triangulating the velocity and trajectory of the flushing bird to intercept, and holding the gun with your remaining 3 fingers? Shoot me a video, please! This I've got to see!
 
A poster here has used terms like “nuff said” and “period and done”.

The arrogance and pomposity is hilarious. Gotta hear more from this guy. I’d like to hear the rest of his rules for life. Bwahaha.
 
straightshooter said:
Is that a fact? So, when game flushes, you reach for the trigger with your forefinger while simultaneously switching off the safety with your thumb? All the while triangulating the velocity and trajectory of the flushing bird to intercept, and holding the gun with your remaining 3 fingers? Shoot me a video, please! This I've got to see!
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When the butt of the gun is on it's way to the shoulder the safety comes off. When the butt leaves the shoulder, the safety goes back on. At no other time is the safety off, no exceptions. Swinging, pointing and shooting are all quite instinctive, but you should know that after 50+ years.
 
time4t said:
A poster has gone on about having hunted for 50 years without incident using his firearm in condition zero( loaded- chambered -safety off); then spoke to a discharge event recently in his hunting party that was of unknown causation- malfunction? / negligent? In the most basic of terms -the practice of carrying a firearm in condition zero: loaded- chambered- safety off- is highly dangerous and any attempts to rationalize it as being safer to carry condition -zero rather than condition- 1(loaded- chambered -safety on) are delusional, and may border on careless use of a firearm. Condition- zero is intended for the transition to discharge when the firearm is on target- and the shooter is reaching for the trigger to fire. Period and done.
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Your words "A poster" normally would mean one poster but you orgionally said "some of the behaviour promoted in this thread" The word "some" usually means more than one so who else do you have a problem with? Once again, I don't think anyone is "promoting" anything here, just answering the question. You seem to be reading a lot into what isn't being said then finishing up with "nuff said" (is nuff even a word?) and "Period and done".
 
9.3mauser said:
When the butt of the gun is on it's way to the shoulder the safety comes off. When the butt leaves the shoulder, the safety goes back on. At no other time is the safety off, no exceptions. Swinging, pointing and shooting are all quite instinctive, but you should know that after 50+ years.
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9.3mauser,

I understand the method, and I'm totally comfortable with anyone who chooses to hunt that way (provided muzzle control is paramount). To say that "At no other time is the safety off, no exceptions", is an opinion and not necessarily a majority opinion, or this discussion would not be taking place. (Majority/minority is irrelevant anyway. The tyranny of the masses is not proof of anything.)

The method described in this quote...

time4t said:
Condition- zero is intended for the transition to discharge when the firearm is on target- and the shooter is reaching for the trigger to fire. Period and done.
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...is not the same method you describe. There are possibly as many methods of carrying when hunting as there are hunters. To each his own. I described the method that has kept those of us who use it safe for decades. Anyone who disagrees is free to use any method they so choose. They will not be able to convince me that their method is the only sane method while I have muzzle direction as my foundation.
 
I always have my SXS locked and loaded. Pheasants, grouse and partridge are fast enough without unnecessary delays.
 
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