T2 Garand - Part 1

[klaus enuff]

I think everyone owes Hitzy a large thank you. Reviewing the thread, some were critical of his questions which turned out very credible.

Copied and pasted from the battle rifle forum. Comments made when it was still assumed they could be legitimate and well in advance of people receiving the rifles.

Hitzy: For an uncommon Italian make work project cobbled together from spare parts that costs $1700 that will sit in your safe untouched.... these are great.

Questions were raised by lots of people. Hitzy would have retained some margin of credibilty and impartiallity had he refrained from discussing his vz58 issues and making insulting comments in the manner of his nemesis johnone.

I'll say it again, I and many others took a chance on these rifles (it is still incredible that they turned out to be this bad) and trusted that we were dealing with a reputable and honest (albeit very crusty and prone to making sarcastic and disparaging comments) dealer. This dealer still has the opportunity to salvage what is left of his reputation and make things right. His actions over the next few days resolving this situation will be quite telling.

 

[plinker 777]

This is interesting

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/m1-garand-development/navy-7-62mm-garand-conversion/

How so?

 

[klaus enuff]

^^^ Agreed. Not sure how the chamber issue conversions apply to the discussion at hand?

 

[Sgiandubh]

How so?

makes no mention of any changes to the bolt bolt

 

[Hitzy]

I think expecting to get what you paid for is a fair assumption. I made my comments before receiving the product I paid for and reserved judgement and definitively commenting until I had them in hand and could make a factual statement, unlike some on here who talked sh@t right off the bat and fed the speculation.

No one knew how bad these rifles actually were until they made it into peoples hands. I don't think anyone could have predicted how bad this situation has turned out to be.

If these rifles had made it into peoples hands and turned out to be a legit product all the naysayers would have quietly faded away. If you want to be smug now and crow about being right feel free.

Dude, as righteous and open minded as you might think you are, you drank the koolaid from the get go...
1--It was not possible for these to be Terni made T2 rifles as they were clearly built on Dane contract receivers going by pics that Marstar posted....you wouldn't believe that.
2--You called and spoke with John, he told you some outrageous story about being built for the Dutch on Dane receiver's as trial rifles and that customers that questioned him were basically #######s....and you still kept drinking the koolaid.
3--Pics of the hack shop where Hauck bragged about putting these together in 26 hours were posted by someone in the milsurp business. The same Hauck who's name is on the supposedly "stored for 50 years" rifles... questionable? Nope, pass the koolaid.
4--I told a similar story (to show a pattern) about getting duped a decade ago by Marstar with BS advertising of a product, and the more recent Berdan/Boxer bait n switch, and you accused me of having a vendetta against John and to stay out of this thread as I wasn't contributing anything useful....still drinking the koolaid.
5--Pics of other people's rifles with no barrel markings (commercial barrels) were up, rusty oprods which does not fit the "excellent condition" description, rear sights not functioning, things were not looking promising....still you took pics and were "very happy with your purchase, didn't care they weren't T2's, and said John would never intentionally mislead a customer"....still drinking the koolaid.
Hard to swallow eh.... you fork out $6000 based on a completely fabricated description of the rifles, speak to the man directly, and not only do you not get what you thought you were buying, you get something not even safe to shoot.
And you still have the gall to state:

If these rifles had made it into peoples hands and turned out to be a legit product all the naysayers would have quietly faded away.

We told you from the start....not T2 based on Dane receivers, but you hoped and hoped that the Easter Bunny John was going to be the real deal....
OK... I'm done my ranting for now....hope you get your money back.

 

[klaus enuff]

I stand by my earlier remarks. Looks like gas-less MIG to me. The bulk of the weld was then ground away.

Self shielding wire (gas-less) or contaminated welds for sure. In the pictures of the workshop posted the MIG welder appears to have an attached shielding gas bottle. Welding and grinding on these surfaces is far from an approved practice, at least if they had tried to TIG them it could have almost been called an attempt to do it somewhat right.

This is the quality of work I expect to see from bubba in his garage, not a german professional gunsmith.

 

[Hitzy]

Copied and pasted from the battle rifle forum. Comments made when it was still assumed they could be legitimate and well in advance of people receiving the rifles.

Hitzy: For an uncommon Italian make work project cobbled together from spare parts that costs $1700 that will sit in your safe untouched.... these are great.

Questions were raised by lots of people. Hitzy would have retained some margin of credibilty and impartiallity had he refrained from discussing his vz58 issues and making insulting comments in the manner of his nemesis johnone.

I'll say it again, I and many others took a chance on these rifles (it is still incredible that they turned out to be this bad) and trusted that we were dealing with a reputable and honest (albeit very crusty and prone to making sarcastic and disparaging comments) dealer. This dealer still has the opportunity to salvage what is left of his reputation and make things right. His actions over the next few days resolving this situation will be quite telling.

This was the whole quote BTW, before I even looked at the pics...since you are too lazy.

For something you are going to shoot a lot, M305 for $600 or less is a better option.
For an uncommon Italian make work project cobbled together from spare parts that costs $1700 that will sit in your safe untouched.... these are great.
I'd rather see converted 308 M1's that share everything with the 30'06 version, then shortened op-rods and handguards.

This was directed ar the BR forum, those guys shoot A LOT. This is the MILSURP forum for collectors who don't shoot their rifles to death like the BR guys do.
Pics of Dane receivers = NOT T2's
Oh yeah, hows it feel to be out $5700? Hope it's just temporary. I'm sure if you call John up he will be real sympathetic to you.

 

[erkner]

120 Garands in 26 hours that makes 13 minutes per gun. It all depends how much that German professional was paid for. May be he was just paid for 13 minutes per rifle. Hard to blame him he posted all the photos of his work including time. If Hauck was trying to pull a fast one he would not brag about it on his internet webpage. Don't you thing guys?

 

[klaus enuff]

Hitzy you had a beef against these rifles from the start. Even when it was assumed they were actual T2 rifles you questioned why anyone would pay such a price for them. For myself I looked at what the James River re-builds sell for and thought it a fair price for a legit milsurp.

I gave these rifles a fair chance, I posted what had been communicated to me by johnone to help add to the discussion and the effort to get information about these rifles. Unlike you I waited until I could independantly confirm the facts before I made a definitive statement. I did this while not dismissing any of the questions raised or information provided by others who again, unlike you, actually bought these rifles.

I and many others gave these rifles a fair chance. I guess we all drank the kool aid. I and many others ordered based on previous positive personal experience, I am sorry if you feel I should give more credibility to a random guy ranting on the internet (you) over this experience.

I will say this episode for me does most certainly tarnish what had been a positive opinion of dealing with Marstar, an opinion formed over multiple dealings, in excess of 10 years.

 

[plinker 777]

Hitzy you had a beef against these rifles from the start. Even when it was assumed they were actual T2 rifles you questioned why anyone would pay such a price for them. For myself I looked at what the James River re-builds sell for and thought it a fair price for a legit milsurp.

I gave these rifles a fair chance, I posted what had been communicated to me by johnone to help add to the discussion and the effort to get information about these rifles. Unlike you I waited until I could independantly confirm the facts before I made a definitive statement. I did this while not dismissing any of the questions raised or information provided by others who again, unlike you, actually bought these rifles.

I and many others gave these rifles a fair chance. I guess we all drank the kool aid. I and many others ordered based on previous positive personal experience, I am sorry if you feel I should give more credibility to a random guy ranting on the internet (you) over this experience.

I will say this episode for me does most certainly tarnish what had been a positive opinion of dealing with Marstar, an opinion formed over multiple dealings, in excess of 10 years.

I'm sorry brother, but if someone knowingly and willingly lies in order to misappropriate money from me, the relationship is more than tarnished! It's ruined! FOREVER. But that's me.

 

[klaus enuff]

I'm sorry brother, but if someone knowingly and willingly lies in order to misappropriate money from me, the relationship is more than tarnished! It's ruined! FOREVER. But that's me.

I will most definitely be returning the rifles I bought for a full refund and Marstar will be paying the costs of shipping, no ifs ands or buts about it. Whether or not I get a personal apology from johnone is of little importance to me. It remains to be seen how Marstar handles the return process.

If I wanted to be generous I could assume that perhaps johnone has himself been caught up in some sort of fraud or scam. But until proof surfaces to confirm so that is just speculation. Regardless it would be something for him to pursue and not leave his customers on the hook for.

 

[Hitzy]

Hitzy you had a beef against these rifles from the start. Even when it was assumed they were actual T2 rifles you questioned why anyone would pay such a price for them. For myself I looked at what the James River re-builds sell for and thought it a fair price for a legit milsurp.

I gave these rifles a fair chance, I posted what had been communicated to me by johnone to help add to the discussion and the effort to get information about these rifles. Unlike you I waited until I could independantly confirm the facts before I made a definitive statement. I did this while not dismissing any of the questions raised or information provided by others who again, unlike you, actually bought these rifles.

I and many others gave these rifles a fair chance. I guess we all drank the kool aid. I and many others ordered based on previous positive personal experience, I am sorry if you feel I should give more credibility to a random guy ranting on the internet (you) over this experience.

I will say this episode for me does most certainly tarnish what had been a positive opinion of dealing with Marstar, an opinion formed over multiple dealings, in excess of 10 years.

Dude, if you took 2 seconds to read my VZ58 rant, you would realize I had prior positive dealings with them too. Spent thousands of dollars there prior to that, Peter a former employee there would come out to our milshoots, he also posted lots on the old CGN and was a good guy. I met John, and they let me pick up 2 restricted firearms there, so it wasn't like they didn't know me and I was a good enough customer to be let into the "secret batcave" that is their shop which isn't open to the public.
Anyway, after getting treated like #### over a $700 firearm at that time, and getting the run around (I wanted a NEW firearm as advertised, but they didn't have any NEW VZ58, only well used beat up ones), I was equally disappointed with how they handled the situation (new doesn't mean new new, just newly assembled... which was also bull#### x2squared) as I was insulted that my prior loyalty meant nothing as well.
But hey I'm just another ####### on the internet...
I did break down and buy some #### from them a couple years back....M305 before the price hike which has been a good rifle, and a Nork M4 which was an absolute pile of garbage which got parted out and sold. Few other things that I read going sour in their forum, now this complete joke of trying to pass off garbage as a rare T2....well I'm done with them for good.

 

[klaus enuff]

Hitzy lets stop going at each other and leave it be. I don't want our personal exchange to detract any further from the content in this thread. I would like this thread to be an impartial and informative record that a third party can read and form their own opinions. I understand Marstar burned you and it has left an impression. Trust me when I say this latest dealing with them has also left an impression with me. As bad as it is, it is still possible for Marstar to make it worse by bungling the returns process. It is my sincere hope that they do not and restore a little bit of their good name.

 

[Hitzy]

Hitzy lets stop going at each other and leave it be. I don't want our personal exchange to detract any further from the content in this thread. I would like this thread to be an impartial and informative record that a third party can read and form their own opinions. I understand Marstar burned you and it has left an impression. Trust me when I saw this latest dealing with them has also left an impression with me. As bad as it is, it is still possible for Marstar to make it worse by bungling the returns process. It is my sincere hope that they do not and restore a little bit of their good name.

Sure, but understand that this isn't a vendetta by me, I got burned by a misleading ad by these guys and I don't forget that stuff, and I don't want it happening again to other Gunnuts, I'm part of a community here, I feel obligated to help people not get burned, or get overcharged, etc. Same thing going on here again with the ad, so there is a pattern.
The best my "vocal outrage" back then did was they changed the ad from "NEW" to state "built from NOS and surplus/used parts"...think they will change the ad this time around to truly reflect the product? I hope so, but I think they just want these rifles to "go away" at this point....

 

[Claven2]

Dude, if you took 2 seconds to read my VZ58 rant, you would realize I had prior positive dealings with them too. Spent thousands of dollars there prior to that, Peter a former employee there would come out to our milshoots, he also posted lots on the old CGN and was a good guy. I met John, and they let me pick up 2 restricted firearms there, so it wasn't like they didn't know me and I was a good enough customer to be let into the "secret batcave" that is their shop which isn't open to the public.
Anyway, after getting treated like #### over a $700 firearm at that time, and getting the run around (I wanted a NEW firearm as advertised, but they didn't have any NEW VZ58, only well used beat up ones), I was equally disappointed with how they handled the situation (new doesn't mean new new, just newly assembled... which was also bull#### x2squared) as I was insulted that my prior loyalty meant nothing as well.
But hey I'm just another ####### on the internet...
I did break down and buy some #### from them a couple years back....M305 before the price hike which has been a good rifle, and a Nork M4 which was an absolute pile of garbage which got parted out and sold. Few other things that I read going sour in their forum, now this complete joke of trying to pass off garbage as a rare T2....well I'm done with them for good.

Peter was a good man. He left to work for CBSA as an officer. I hear from him from time to time. When he was there, it trusted him to hand pick for me as a friend.

Frank was also really good, but he left Marstar a few months ago under less than ideal circumstances. Too bad. Other than John, those were the only two Marstar guy I had personal relationships with.

 

[Light Infantry]

Ok, i am going to go on a tangent here. Did we not have a similar issue of misrepresentation with 7.62 x 39 ammo many years back? Denial that it was corrosive and then modification of the original advertisement to cover up this misrepresentation, etc etc?

If I am wrong i will delete this post immediately.

 

[Dyspnea]

Ill fully admit I drank the Kool-Aid. I jumped on the bandwagon, thinking I’d get in early on a "rare" variation of a Garand. I felt they wouldn't last long before they were sold out and they didn’t (sold out before the end of the day). But as more information emerged it was apparent they weren't T2's. I decided I would wait and see before I made a final judgement. I thought at worst paying $1600 for a (shooter) Garand was a decent price for a quality and excellent condition Garand.

I have put together 4 parts kits worth of Garand’s (one of which is assembled) and the parts have all been in a variety of conditions. I figured $1600 was decent once you consider all cost involved parts (taxes/shipping), gunsmithing and refinishing costs to build a Garand

My initial impression of my Garand at its arrival was positive. The stock is beautiful, the metal condition and finish are excellent. But when others started to report ground and welded bolts/bolt lugs, that’s when I really became concerned and found my bolt received the same treatment. If I could at (no cost to me) have new bolt installed with proper headspace I would probably keep it. But it seems that even the quality and fit of the barrels is questionable (barrel removable by hand, improperly indexed, gaps between barrel receiver, improper reaming). To find a new barrel chambered in .308 and shortened by 1/2” is nearly unobtainable here in Canada. To change to a standard barrel, the oprod, rear handguard and stock would all need to be changed which is far too costly on top of $1600.

I certainly believe all the “t2” Garand that have been sold by marstar SHOULD NOT be fired. I hope Marstar will take action on these rifles after the long weekend and contact owners and advised them to not use them and to return them (I.E voluntary recall). They should cease sales and either repair the rifles or sadly part them out. This is my only my second interaction with Marstar, while I will not completely rule out future purchase from them. My final decision and what I recommend to others will come down to how my return process goes and what action Marstar takes on the entire situation. I just hope Marstar does the right thing before someone suffers injury or worse.

 

[#1bcshooter]

Ill fully admit I drank the Kool-Aid. I jumped on the bandwagon, thinking I’d get in early on a "rare" variation of a Garand. I felt they wouldn't last long before they were sold out and they didn’t (sold out before the end of the day). But as more information emerged it was apparent they weren't T2's. I decided I would wait and see before I made a final judgement. I thought at worst paying $1600 for a (shooter) Garand was a decent price for a quality and excellent condition Garand.

I have put together 4 parts kits worth of Garand’s (one of which is assembled) and the parts have all been in a variety of conditions. I figured $1600 was decent once you consider all cost involved parts (taxes/shipping), gunsmithing and refinishing costs to build a Garand

My initial impression of my Garand at its arrival was positive. The stock is beautiful, the metal condition and finish are excellent. But when others started to report ground and welded bolts/bolt lugs, that’s when I really became concerned and found my bolt received the same treatment. If I could at (no cost to me) have new bolt installed with proper headspace I would probably keep it. But it seems that even the quality and fit of the barrels is questionable (barrel removable by hand, improperly indexed, gaps between barrel receiver, improper reaming). To find a new barrel chambered in .308 and shortened by 1/2” is nearly unobtainable here in Canada. To change to a standard barrel, the oprod, rear handguard and stock would all need to be changed which is far too costly on top of $1600.

I certainly believe all the “t2” Garand that have been sold by marstar SHOULD NOT be fired. I hope Marstar will take action on these rifles after the long weekend and contact owners and advised them to not use them and to return them (I.E voluntary recall). They should cease sales and either repair the rifles or sadly part them out. This is my only my second interaction with Marstar, while I will not completely rule out future purchase from them. My final decision and what I recommend to others will come down to how my return process goes and what action Marstar takes on the entire situation. I just hope Marstar does the right thing before someone suffers injury or worse.

If he doesn't they should at the very least be banned from CGN !

 

[plinker 777]

Ill fully admit I drank the Kool-Aid. I jumped on the bandwagon, thinking I’d get in early on a "rare" variation of a Garand. I felt they wouldn't last long before they were sold out and they didn’t (sold out before the end of the day). But as more information emerged it was apparent they weren't T2's. I decided I would wait and see before I made a final judgement. I thought at worst paying $1600 for a (shooter) Garand was a decent price for a quality and excellent condition Garand.

I have put together 4 parts kits worth of Garand’s (one of which is assembled) and the parts have all been in a variety of conditions. I figured $1600 was decent once you consider all cost involved parts (taxes/shipping), gunsmithing and refinishing costs to build a Garand

My initial impression of my Garand at its arrival was positive. The stock is beautiful, the metal condition and finish are excellent. But when others started to report ground and welded bolts/bolt lugs, that’s when I really became concerned and found my bolt received the same treatment. If I could at (no cost to me) have new bolt installed with proper headspace I would probably keep it. But it seems that even the quality and fit of the barrels is questionable (barrel removable by hand, improperly indexed, gaps between barrel receiver, improper reaming). To find a new barrel chambered in .308 and shortened by 1/2” is nearly unobtainable here in Canada. To change to a standard barrel, the oprod, rear handguard and stock would all need to be changed which is far too costly on top of $1600.

I certainly believe all the “t2” Garand that have been sold by marstar SHOULD NOT be fired. I hope Marstar will take action on these rifles after the long weekend and contact owners and advised them to not use them and to return them (I.E voluntary recall). They should cease sales and either repair the rifles or sadly part them out. This is my only my second interaction with Marstar, while I will not completely rule out future purchase from them. My final decision and what I recommend to others will come down to how my return process goes and what action Marstar takes on the entire situation. I just hope Marstar does the right thing before someone suffers injury or worse.

John has been here. He has watched the thread unravel and has not commented, has not ceased sales, has not recalled, does not care if someone is injured this weekend. Why aren't you guys demanding T2's rather than $ back? I mean that's what was purchased...Italian T2 military rifles in excellent condition...not to be confused with inferior commercial rifles.
John is waiting for this thread to flame out.

 

[#1bcshooter]

John has been here. He has watched the thread unravel and has not commented, has not ceased sales, has not recalled, does not care if someone is injured this weekend. Why aren't you guys demanding T2's rather than $ back? I mean that's what was purchased...Italian T2 military rifles in excellent condition...not to be confused with inferior commercial rifles.
John is waiting for this thread to flame out.

I don't ever recall him admitting he was wrong about anything .
Why would he start now .