T97 in 300 AAC?

Whats with the hate of Norincos. They use actually dies and machines that the original manufacturer used. They are more authentic then any remade "American Made" rifles around. They don't jack the price up because they don't waste the time making sure unimportant things like paint are perfect and rounding off sharp edges so prissy shooters don't hurt there sensitive hands shooting them. I own 4 Norincos and ever one of them run perfect. Better than a Stag AR-15 and a Daniel Defense AR-15 I own and half to a third the price.
 
Epoxy7 said:
I like the the T97. For an irons fun plinker it's great.

I however don't drink the 300 Blackout cool aid. It seems to be a round to try and imitate a round that doesn't work in the AR platform. Plus you won't have trouble getting 223/5.56 but may have trouble finding the 300 AAC in the future as it may turn out to just be a special use or niche round that fades into the sunset after the fad is over.

Personally rather than converting the T97 I'd just add a CZ858 to the safe. If your heart is set on 300 AAC then I'd wait for something that comes out of the box in that caliber.

That being said if you absolutely must have a 300 AAC T97 or it's a project you really want to do then other than cost and finding the right gunsmith the T97 should work fine as a base. Anyone who's taken one apart would know there isn't much to cause reliability issues with the design. Manufacturing isn't super pretty but the heart of the system is very tried and true. That system has a proven reliability record even when cheaply made.
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I'm not sure I follow you on your comment about imitating a round that doesn't work in an AR. The 300BLK was designed specifically to offer comparable ballistics to the 7.62x39 but in a cartridge that works perfectly in an AR and then they went one step further by making those cartridges cycle projectiles from 110gr all the way through 220gr which makes it infinitely more flexible than the 7.62x39.
It will never be hard to get 300BLK ammo for any reloader. There will always be 223/5.56 brass and it is very simple to convert the brass to 300BLK. Projectiles are the easiest caliber to find on the shelf of any gun store.


OP I just though of something which I think will be the biggest hurdle you will have to get by if you really want to make this work. You are going to have to find a barrel extension that will work with your bolt or you are going to have to destroy your factory barrel to take the one off the 223 barrel. I'm not sure what the gas system length is on the T-97 but 300BLK doesn't like anything longer than pistol length and while it can be made to work with a carbine length getting it to cycle becomes harder and you may not be able to get certain weights to cycle properly.

If you do get it to work be sure to post some pics but I have a feeling it's going to cost you at least $1000 but probably more.
 
Yup... Guy starts a legit thread and trolls come out to crap in it.

Stay classy.

If you can reload, .300 AAC is more than available to you, as for the barell swap, I don't know.

Good luck OP.
 
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cr5 said:
I'm not sure I follow you on your comment about imitating a round that doesn't work in an AR. The 300BLK was designed specifically to offer comparable ballistics to the 7.62x39 but in a cartridge that works perfectly in an AR and then they went one step further by making those cartridges cycle projectiles from 110gr all the way through 220gr which makes it infinitely more flexible than the 7.62x39.
It will never be hard to get 300BLK ammo for any reloader. There will always be 223/5.56 brass and it is very simple to convert the brass to 300BLK. Projectiles are the easiest caliber to find on the shelf of any gun store.
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You almost got it. I was pointing out that it's a cartridge meant to mimick the 7.62x39 which doesn't work well in the AR platform. My recommendation was to just buy a CZ858 to shoot 7.62x39 instead of spending money on a conversion.

If you're reloading I'm sure you can always get components. But off the shelf is a different story. Plus frankly that's a lot of cost and money for what is realistically a 200 meter round. What's the cost of 7.62x39 surplus?

Frankly I would wait to see if the new CZ rifles or ARX160/100 come in 7.62x39 rather than convert.

Personally 300 blk isn't a round I'd consider. Cost, availability and performance characteristics don't put it on my list. I don't shoot shorty or supressed firearms though.

That being said if someone is set on it them it's not for me to kill their enthusiasm. Just know what you're getting into. After that have fun and post pictures!
 
Epoxy7 said:
You almost got it. I was pointing out that it's a cartridge meant to mimick the 7.62x39 which doesn't work well in the AR platform. My recommendation was to just buy a CZ858 to shoot 7.62x39 instead of spending money on a conversion.

If you're reloading I'm sure you can always get components. But off the shelf is a different story. Plus frankly that's a lot of cost and money for what is realistically a 200 meter round. What's the cost of 7.62x39 surplus?

Frankly I would wait to see if the new CZ rifles or ARX160/100 come in 7.62x39 rather than convert.

Personally 300 blk isn't a round I'd consider. Cost, availability and performance characteristics don't put it on my list. I don't shoot shorty or supressed firearms though.

That being said if someone is set on it them it's not for me to kill their enthusiasm. Just know what you're getting into. After that have fun and post pictures!
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Agree'd, Just buy a CZ and a pile of ammo.

I love my 300BLK but I would never spend a $1000 or more to convert a $900 rifle over.

300BLK is much more than a 200yd round, do some research, easily a 500yd round. I wouldn't try to shoot a deer beyond 150yds but you can hit targets quite a long way out there.

I wouldn't hold your breath for the ARX160, they still need to make it through the firearms lab and that could take a long time.

OP, Call Ian at Herron tomorrow and let us know what he says.
 
cr5 said:
Agree'd, Just buy a CZ and a pile of ammo.

I love my 300BLK but I would never spend a $1000 or more to convert a $900 rifle over.

300BLK is much more than a 200yd round, do some research, easily a 500yd round. I wouldn't try to shoot a deer beyond 150yds but you can hit targets quite a long way out there.

I wouldn't hold your breath for the ARX160, they still need to make it through the firearms lab and that could take a long time.

OP, Call Ian at Herron tomorrow and let us know what he says.
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Obviously I have done some research otherwise you wouldn't have pretty much confirmed my view of the effective range being realistically 200 metres. You can get further out. But at that point I'd use a more appropriate caliber for anything more than plinking or small varminting. Keeping in mind that 7.62x39, 8mm Kurtz etc were designed for use within 300 yards.

At one time I had a project in mind for a bolt action, short bull barreled, light rifle in 7.62x39. Pretty much my CZ527 Kevlar only in 7.62x39. Even converting the 7.62x39 version to the specs I wanted was going to cost more than what I wanted to pay. I ended up scrapping the idea before even starting. Would have been fun but oh well.

As for the ARX160/100. I waited three years for the Kel-Tec RFB. I've had one fir a few years now. I'm not in a hurry.

One other interesting point between 223/5.56 and 7.62x39 or similar loads such as 300 blackout. When it comes to going through metal the higher velocity 223 wins. I tested both on a decent thickness of scrap metal out on a buddies 1/4 section using a NR CZ858 and cheq surplus Vs a Tavor with American Eagle 55 grain FMJ. The 7.62 hit with a bigger thud but on the thicker piece of metal it left a large divot while failing to go through. The 223 round went through.
 
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One thing to consider is the optimized barrel length for 300BLK. A "long" barrel is 16", average barrels are in the 9-13" range. You can have longer barrels by all means, but as I understand it doing so will drastically limit your load options and/or run into issues of classification. Especially with a bullpup, you could run into a situation where it's either restricted, or you can only shoot one type of load through it because slower velocities will get bullets stuck in your barrel. Maybe that's a problem for you, maybe it's not, but it's worth considering. Remember, quite a few 300blk loads have rather low velocities compared to other cartridges, it could cause problems to try to push it through an 18" barrel.

Also, if you do go with a proper short barrel, what are you going to do about the handguard? Will you have a barrel flush with the guard, or even inside it, or will you have to get a gunsmith to shorten it?

Part of the raison d'être of bullpups is to have the maximum barrel length inside a minimum OAL. Putting a cartridge optimized for short barrels inside a platform optimized for long barrels is going to cause some problems, especially in Canada.
 
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Epoxy7 said:
Obviously I have done some research otherwise you wouldn't have pretty much confirmed my view of the effective range being realistically 200 metres. You can get further out. But at that point I'd use a more appropriate caliber for anything more than plinking or small varminting. Keeping in mind that 7.62x39, 8mm Kurtz etc were designed for use within 300 yards.

At one time I had a project in mind for a bolt action, short bull barreled, light rifle in 7.62x39. Pretty much my CZ527 Kevlar only in 7.62x39. Even converting the 7.62x39 version to the specs I wanted was going to cost more than what I wanted to pay. I ended up scrapping the idea before even starting. Would have been fun but oh well.

As for the ARX160/100. I waited three years for the Kel-Tec RFB. I've had one fir a few years now. I'm not in a hurry.

One other interesting point between 223/5.56 and 7.62x39 or similar loads such as 300 blackout. When it comes to going through metal the higher velocity 223 wins. I tested both on a decent thickness of scrap metal out on a buddies 1/4 section using a NR CZ858 and cheq surplus Vs a Tavor with American Eagle 55 grain FMJ. The 7.62 hit with a bigger thud but on the thicker piece of metal it left a large divot while failing to go through. The 223 round went through.
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Sorry, as a civilian in Canada to me the effective range is however far a can hit a target with a bullet, I don't care much about terminal ballistics other than during hunting season which is why I mentioned 150yds as the limit I would shoot a deer with this caliber. I don't really care which one will penetrate the thicker barrier or body armor.

In regards to your second statement about cost, that is exactly what I was getting at with my earlier posts saying it's silly to spend over $1000 to change the caliber of a $900 Chinese rifle.

I too waited a long time for my RFB but after a year with it I found I just wasn't using it enough to justify the cost and I sold it. Probably going to regret that sale.
 
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Stevebot-7 said:
One thing to consider is the optimized barrel length for 300BLK. A "long" barrel is 16", average barrels are in the 9-13" range. You can have longer barrels by all means, but as I understand it doing so will drastically limit your load options and/or run into issues of classification. Especially with a bullpup, you could run into a situation where it's either restricted, or you can only shoot one type of load through it because slower velocities will get bullets stuck in your barrel. Maybe that's a problem for you, maybe it's not, but it's worth considering. Remember, quite a few 300blk loads have rather low velocities compared to other cartridges, it could cause problems to try to push it through an 18" barrel.

Also, if you do go with a proper short barrel, what are you going to do about the handguard? Will you have a barrel flush with the guard, or even inside it, or will you have to get a gunsmith to shorten it?

Part of the raison d'être of bullpups is to have the maximum barrel length inside a minimum OAL. Putting a cartridge optimized for short barrels inside a platform optimized for long barrels is going to cause some problems, especially in Canada.
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I'm not sure the cartridge is optimised for short barrels as much as it simply doesn't have the incredible velocity loss as the barrel length becomes less like the 5.56 does.

As long as you can use the correct length of gas system it should cycle with most ammo.

We need Suputin on this one but it's quite obvious he thinks this is a silly idea. He is the closest thing this site has to a 300blk specialist.

Personally if it cost more than $300 I wouldn't bother doing it to this rifle. There are better platforms out there to try projects like this on.
 
Like I said earlier I sent my tavor to Ian at Herron arms back in September of 2012 he had no problem getting the rifle to work with 300 blk with supersonic rounds but if you want it to work with both super sonic and sub sonic that's a different matter all together. Let's just say he still has my tavor and it's looking doubtful it will be a successful outcome.
 
mrsmitty said:
Like I said earlier I sent my tavor to Ian at Herron arms back in September of 2012 he had no problem getting the rifle to work with 300 blk with supersonic rounds but if you want it to work with both super sonic and sub sonic that's a different matter all together. Let's just say he still has my tavor and it's looking doubtful it will be a successful outcome.
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What is he using for ammo for testing?
My PWS MK109 AR in 300BLACK will not cycle factory Hornady 208gr subsonic but if I load 208gr Hornady BTHP with 12.5gr of Accurate 1680 it cycles perfectly. The 300BLACK is very sensitive to pressure in a semi auto and most people don't realize that the loads in the manuals are not all for semi auto rifles.
Without knowing what Ian is using you may be able to help him by supplying some handloads with an appropriate powder or pointing him in the right direction if he's making his own to test in your rifle.
I use H110 for 110-130gr projectiles, Lil'Gun for mid-weight and Accurate 1680 for 190+gr projectiles. I just loaded up some 150gr with 1680 to see if I can get those to cycle but Lil'Gun is my go to powder for the 150's.

Good luck
 
Back when the 6.5 Grendel came out everyone got into a tizzy figuring out which rifles could be "Grendelized" as they called it. I remember one dummy spouting off about how they could convert an SKS to 6.5 Grendel.

Now there is a big difference between what CAN be done and what SHOULD be done or what is worthwhile doing. Running an old clapped out VW Beetle on $10 a litre oxygenated racing fuel CAN be done but it is certainly not worthwhile and thus it shouldn't be done. Converting a $150 rifle to run on expensive and super accurate ammo should't be done. Rebarreling a crudely made chinese, flavour of the month, skinny barrelled rifle to a specialty round shouldn't be done.

This is my point.
 
"reasonable cost" is very subjective.

If you are a technical competent person and have access to machines to accomplish the task, than the answer will be "yes".

Getting someone to reverse engineer and test the barrel and the cycling system of a T97 for 300 BLK, will be probably more than the cost of the rifle, highly doubt anyone will take the challenge for a fixed fee. Of course I am going to assume that you will want to shoot it, since 300 BLK is not a yet adapted for general deployment by any arm forces, you will not likely find any ammo in good quantity and at a reasonable price, so you probably have to look at getting into reloading and that will more than likely cost the same price as another rifle.

Let us assume you have gone and done all that what you end up with is a rifle that shoots a calibre that was design to replicate the shooting characteristic of 70 year old round that is so plentiful the cost is about the same as match grade rimfire rounds.

if you still find all that reasonable, than go and knock yourself out, be sure to post pictures and write a detail post, because I think even Suputin would love to read about it.

personally I would just go and buy a used XCR in 7.62 x 39 and couple crates of surplus ammo :)
 
hbean said:
if you still find all that reasonable, than go and knock yourself out, be sure to post pictures and write a detail post, because I think even Suputin would love to read about it.
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Nope, don't want to. I'm a lefty so I have no interest in bull pups, I have no interest in crappy communistic guns either. So this project combines two things I have no interest in. It might as well be ### midget #### as far as I am concerned. ;)
 
Suputin said:
Nope, don't want to. I'm a lefty so I have no interest in bull pups, I have no interest in crappy communistic guns either. So this project combines two things I have no interest in. It might as well be ### midget #### as far as I am concerned. ;)
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but everybody loves a good train wreck ;)
 
.300 Blackout in a T97 would be an interesting option if you wanted a T97 to begin with. Personally, not my thing but I can appreciate those who do like them.

As far as a conversion goes, it's strictly a trial and error/pay as you go ordeal. Considering that you're doing something that likely hasn't been done before, you could expect it to be a costly endeavor. As Suputin already mentioned, probably not worth the effort, cost, or aggravation. However, if you want something different and want to be the first guy to do it, have at it. It's only money. You can't take it with you. ;)

The Blackout isn't for everyone but a lot of the comments made regarding it are out of simple ignorance. The beauty of the cartridge is in its versatility. The guys that keep perpetuating the myth that the Blackout isn't worth having because we can't own suppressors really do need to educate themselves more about the cartridge before commenting on it.
 
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