Taiwanese lathe
- Thread starter Grizzly Adams
- Start date
Could have been made to about any price point from very cheap, to very well made (expensive) and all points in between.
If you think it will suit your needs and the price seems bearable, then it will serve you better than any picture in a catalog ever will.
If you think it will suit your needs and the price seems bearable, then it will serve you better than any picture in a catalog ever will.
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
I have a 1236 Taiwanese lathe and the price of the machine made the difference between owning one and just plain not having one...I am very satisfied with its use over the last dozen yrs or so...it has limitations that I don't override ANYTIME.
I participated in the SAIT gunsmithing course one winter 10 yrs ago or so and the lathes they had had a made in USA Modern Lathe nameplate but after a very thorough comparison between theirs and my lath I will eat my shorts if both lathes didn't come from the same factory...those Modern machines may have been assembled in the USA but they sure weren't "made there". Every part of my lathe that was measured would have interchanged with the Sait machines.
I participated in the SAIT gunsmithing course one winter 10 yrs ago or so and the lathes they had had a made in USA Modern Lathe nameplate but after a very thorough comparison between theirs and my lath I will eat my shorts if both lathes didn't come from the same factory...those Modern machines may have been assembled in the USA but they sure weren't "made there". Every part of my lathe that was measured would have interchanged with the Sait machines.
Lol SAIT's manuals are nothing to write home about. At least they weren't during the entirety of my apprenticeship that I finished in 2009. They probably have newer machines now with the new buildings and such.
Some Pics would be awesome. What tooling did it come with?
The Taiwanese machines had a reputation for being better quality
than the ones that were made in China. I have a Chinese 12 x 36 lathe from
Busy Bee tools and I am very happy with it.
Terry
The Taiwanese machines had a reputation for being better quality
than the ones that were made in China. I have a Chinese 12 x 36 lathe from
Busy Bee tools and I am very happy with it.
Terry
Ya the quality varies, the 14x40 I have now is a decent machine but I sold a nice 13x36 to a friend some years ago and it was a better machine. I'm fighting with the 14x40 now trying to get decent metric threads from it and not having much luck as the instruction book lacks a bit in translation. When they say "do not place in the sunshine hole" I assume they mean a window.
When you check your three jaw chuck for run out is when you find out how good that lathe is.
Set up a dial indicator on the the compound slide and and put the point on the outside diameter towards the back, where it won't be effected by the tension adjusters or jaws.
One of my Taiwanese lathes has "0" run out on the chuck body but when a piece of 1 inch drill rod is tensioned between the jaws there is .006in of run out. Thankfully it's linear true over the length protruding. This can be fixed with shims on the offending jaw face.
The four jaw chuck should also be true to the axis of the spindle center.
When it is set up with a collet, again thankfully it's true to the axis of the spindle center.
The next thing you will need to check is if there is a measurable difference on a piece of properly centered rod to the tail stock spindle. It's easily adjusted to true.
If you don't know how to do this, get a book that explains all of this to you in layman's terms or do a lot of searching on the internet. The Taiwanese and Chinese lathes don't come with instruction books and very little tooling.
Get some GOOD bits and a magnetic base dial indicator and start playing. If you don't have a bench grinder, get one. Even a small six inch unit will grind your tool bits acceptably.
Depending on your lathe, it may not have enough power to properly run "carbide" tipped bits. Carbide needs special grinding wheels as well.
Good pedestal grinders are very expensive. I was lucky to be able to pick up a unit that is close to 70 years old. It was headed for the dump. I rescued it and rebuilt it. It has tables on each stone which are adjustable for angle and height from the side and was designed purposely for grinding tool bits. It runs at 3600rpm with zero vibration. This only happens with expensive/well made equipment. Most pedestal grinders wobble to much for accurate grinding. That's why I suggest a "bench mounted" grinder. Hopefully the bench is solid enough to eliminate some of the wobble until the stones can be properly faced and balanced with proper facing wheels.
Another trick I recently picked up at another back woods machinist's shop was his use of a five inch angle grinder that he had modified and clamped to his bench. The face of the wheels are usually true enough to do a very decent job grinding tool bits, with the proper wheels of course. His shop is very limited for space and with the home made adjustable tool rest table this set up works very well and was made from a ten dollar piece of junk with a broken handle which needed an electrical cord. It may not be pretty but it works for its intended purpose.
You're going to break tools and maybe tool holders. It happens when you're on the learning curve.
You also may want to use a different tool post holder than your lathe comes equipped with. I tried three different types until I was satisfied. On one lathe I finally ended up with an Aloris, quick change post and on the other I stayed with the turret type it came with. I also tried the old rocker style type post but I found it wasn't stable enough for my needs and could easily get knocked out of set up.
Have fun. It won't all just come together instantly. At least it didn't for me. Just keep at it and take your time. Machining is not a lazy man's game.
Set up a dial indicator on the the compound slide and and put the point on the outside diameter towards the back, where it won't be effected by the tension adjusters or jaws.
One of my Taiwanese lathes has "0" run out on the chuck body but when a piece of 1 inch drill rod is tensioned between the jaws there is .006in of run out. Thankfully it's linear true over the length protruding. This can be fixed with shims on the offending jaw face.
The four jaw chuck should also be true to the axis of the spindle center.
When it is set up with a collet, again thankfully it's true to the axis of the spindle center.
The next thing you will need to check is if there is a measurable difference on a piece of properly centered rod to the tail stock spindle. It's easily adjusted to true.
If you don't know how to do this, get a book that explains all of this to you in layman's terms or do a lot of searching on the internet. The Taiwanese and Chinese lathes don't come with instruction books and very little tooling.
Get some GOOD bits and a magnetic base dial indicator and start playing. If you don't have a bench grinder, get one. Even a small six inch unit will grind your tool bits acceptably.
Depending on your lathe, it may not have enough power to properly run "carbide" tipped bits. Carbide needs special grinding wheels as well.
Good pedestal grinders are very expensive. I was lucky to be able to pick up a unit that is close to 70 years old. It was headed for the dump. I rescued it and rebuilt it. It has tables on each stone which are adjustable for angle and height from the side and was designed purposely for grinding tool bits. It runs at 3600rpm with zero vibration. This only happens with expensive/well made equipment. Most pedestal grinders wobble to much for accurate grinding. That's why I suggest a "bench mounted" grinder. Hopefully the bench is solid enough to eliminate some of the wobble until the stones can be properly faced and balanced with proper facing wheels.
Another trick I recently picked up at another back woods machinist's shop was his use of a five inch angle grinder that he had modified and clamped to his bench. The face of the wheels are usually true enough to do a very decent job grinding tool bits, with the proper wheels of course. His shop is very limited for space and with the home made adjustable tool rest table this set up works very well and was made from a ten dollar piece of junk with a broken handle which needed an electrical cord. It may not be pretty but it works for its intended purpose.
You're going to break tools and maybe tool holders. It happens when you're on the learning curve.
You also may want to use a different tool post holder than your lathe comes equipped with. I tried three different types until I was satisfied. On one lathe I finally ended up with an Aloris, quick change post and on the other I stayed with the turret type it came with. I also tried the old rocker style type post but I found it wasn't stable enough for my needs and could easily get knocked out of set up.
Have fun. It won't all just come together instantly. At least it didn't for me. Just keep at it and take your time. Machining is not a lazy man's game.
Even an american pacemaker, or D S&G, etc. Or some of the good small german, swiss, or japanese iron...
Hardinge HLV-H EM would be a really nice barrel lathe. a 11x18 lathe that weighs a ton... Literally...
I fully agree. As long as everything else is aligned or the bearings are fine. I have a chuck with issues. The rest of the lathe is as good as any other I've used. It also depends on how the chuck is attached to the spindle. Lots of things cause run out.
I was just giving the fellow that recently purchased a Taiwanese lathe a few pointers on what to look for before he started working on an expensive item, thinking all lathes are created equal and true to their spindle axis.
Best things I can suggest is good lights, a reasonable bench mounted grinder, and a handful of HSS bits to start out with. Nothing wrong with carbide tooling, except that you crunch a $5-$10 tip each time you screw up. And you will. A lot at first, less later.
Practice grinding bits and pay attention to what works for you for grinding techniques.
Remember this. High Speed Steel is so named, because it will hold a cutting edge at red heat and beyond. This means, among other things, that you don't really have to worry about how hot you get the cutting bit while grinding, the cooling pot is so you don't burn your fingers! I like using a pair of Vic-Grips to hold the bit for rapid stock removal, then grind the remainder hand held.
If grinding hard enough to reach red heat, allow the bit to cool slowly in air, down to black, before dipping it. As tough as the stuff is, the heat shock supposedly will cause a micro fracturing on the surface of the tool, if quenched from too hot. But I have never been able to see or demonstrate such, and the next hit on the grinder is going to remove the surface layer in any case.
For those of a mind to tell me to not get the bit hot, go read the heat treat schedule for HSS, esp., for annealing HSS. This, won't do it.
As a point of Historical fact, when HSS was the hot ticket industrially, the tool holder makers, like Armstrong, also provided holders for use while grinding. They typically had a long shank with a ball end on it so you could lean on the bugger with your body weight to get the grinder working. Nobody was being paid to stand around grinding a wee amount at a time off a tool bit worrying about how warm their fingers were.
Buy some stock to practice on. I would suggest 12L14 round or hex if you can find some, and 4140 or 4145 round stock, which is Chrome Moly steel. If you can find a source of 416 Stainless, grab some of that too. The 12L14 is a leaded, free machining steel and is almost as easy to turn a nice finish on as Brass, but nowhere near as expensive. Th other steels are essentially the same steels used for barrels everywhere. they each have their differences, but (relatively) easy machining is pretty much a requirement as barrel stock, generally speaking.
Practice threading. Make threads, cut them off, make more. Work up to a line, then up to a shoulder, etc., until any fear is gone gone gone. Threading is dull, not exciting, etc. Not to be feared, despite the reams of hooey out there written by the afraid.
Cheers
Trev
Practice grinding bits and pay attention to what works for you for grinding techniques.
Remember this. High Speed Steel is so named, because it will hold a cutting edge at red heat and beyond. This means, among other things, that you don't really have to worry about how hot you get the cutting bit while grinding, the cooling pot is so you don't burn your fingers! I like using a pair of Vic-Grips to hold the bit for rapid stock removal, then grind the remainder hand held.
If grinding hard enough to reach red heat, allow the bit to cool slowly in air, down to black, before dipping it. As tough as the stuff is, the heat shock supposedly will cause a micro fracturing on the surface of the tool, if quenched from too hot. But I have never been able to see or demonstrate such, and the next hit on the grinder is going to remove the surface layer in any case.
For those of a mind to tell me to not get the bit hot, go read the heat treat schedule for HSS, esp., for annealing HSS. This, won't do it.
As a point of Historical fact, when HSS was the hot ticket industrially, the tool holder makers, like Armstrong, also provided holders for use while grinding. They typically had a long shank with a ball end on it so you could lean on the bugger with your body weight to get the grinder working. Nobody was being paid to stand around grinding a wee amount at a time off a tool bit worrying about how warm their fingers were.
Buy some stock to practice on. I would suggest 12L14 round or hex if you can find some, and 4140 or 4145 round stock, which is Chrome Moly steel. If you can find a source of 416 Stainless, grab some of that too. The 12L14 is a leaded, free machining steel and is almost as easy to turn a nice finish on as Brass, but nowhere near as expensive. Th other steels are essentially the same steels used for barrels everywhere. they each have their differences, but (relatively) easy machining is pretty much a requirement as barrel stock, generally speaking.
Practice threading. Make threads, cut them off, make more. Work up to a line, then up to a shoulder, etc., until any fear is gone gone gone. Threading is dull, not exciting, etc. Not to be feared, despite the reams of hooey out there written by the afraid.
Cheers
Trev
Metal supermarkets has a clearance bin with a bunch of that stuff sold relatively cheap.
Yep, and if you can get to one, they are pretty cheap, at least, out of the clearance bin.
Metal Supermarkets is pretty much the 7-11 of the metal suppliers, and they are not the cheap place to shop by a very long shot, but if all you need is a couple feet instead of a whole bar, they will sell it to you.
If you live in the sticks, and don't get near a city with a store in it often, mail order is a bit more expensive. Cheaper than gas money, though!
Having known materials is a real boon to figuring out why things are going sideways when they do. While barrels have been made from rebar, most of the random steel out there is going to behave in random manners, and not do much for the users confidence, when they cannot repeat the results from part to part.
Cheers
Trev
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
I live rurally and Metal Warehouse is a 4 hr round trip for me so I only make the trip if I am starting a project that needs specific tensile strength material. I have learned to scrounge locally for "better than hot rolled" material. Hydraulic rams from wore out industrial or farm machinery is a good source for heavy bar that finishes well and is fairly tough...one thing I will say is that a good scrounger has to have more nerve than a ####house rat...
if the chuck runs out a few things to check, remove it and dial the spindle, apply pressure on the side opposite to the dial and see if the bearings are tight, dial the bore of the spindle also, if the spindle is good clean the chuck by removing jaws and look for any bits in the scroll, most chucks are a cam-lock, again check for bits trapped on the face of the mounting plate, if it still runs out you can true it up, on smaller machines say upto 8 inch chuck use 3 shims the same size, put them between the jaw sides and use a die grinder mounted in the tool-post to grind the jaw face, works great and should also fix the chuck holding at the back of the jaws which causes vibration when cutting
For all the time folks spend worrying about how much their three jaw chuck runs out, there is one simple truth that most miss.
It just doesn't matter, unless you are taking the work out of the chuck and putting it back in. In which case, you are using the wrong chuck, most likely.
The first pass off the stock makes it round and in line with the axis of rotation of the spindle. Even if it initially wobbles like the wheels of a Clown Car.
If you are so close to stock size that you cannot afford a cleanup pass, maybe a different workholding solution is a better choice. Like a 4 jaw chuck.
It just doesn't matter, unless you are taking the work out of the chuck and putting it back in. In which case, you are using the wrong chuck, most likely.
The first pass off the stock makes it round and in line with the axis of rotation of the spindle. Even if it initially wobbles like the wheels of a Clown Car.
If you are so close to stock size that you cannot afford a cleanup pass, maybe a different workholding solution is a better choice. Like a 4 jaw chuck.
