Tanfoglio 10mm Problems...(pics)

The Lee manual lists lots of 180gr loads that max out well over 1200 fps and some that start above 1150. Off the top of my head I recall the Power Pistol starting load velocity for a 180 grain lead bullet is 1177.

So the lesson here is, if your company can't build guns that can handle normal 10mm performance, don't build 10mm guns.
 
Page 303 , 11th addition Cartridges of the World
Unfortunately everyone has a different point of reference .

P1020074.jpg
 
Those Blue Dot loads are all starting charges. 180 JHP goes up to 11 grains in Speer #14 and a velocity of about 1300 fps out of most of my 10mms. A lead bullet at 1150fps is low pressure and pretty light compared to what's out there.
 
No kidding, and one of those loads is 200 grains at 1200 FPS...incidentally a load my Glock has no problem with this kind of load.

Note also that the 200 grains at 1200 FPS/635 ft-lb load is specifically described there as the classic Norma load!

Everyone may have a different point of reference...but the one you're using supports B, not you.
 
I just hope one day one of you can explain me the necessity of pushing the limits of that cartridge for the benefit of poking the same hole on the paper 30 yards away , considering the consequences.
 
I carried for defense against wild animals my Colt Delta Elite/Glock 20 both in 10mm in remote wilderness areas for years I had them on my ATC...

I did more than punch paper...

;)
 
I promise to do this...but first you must explain why you think substantially undercutting the original 10mm factory load is "pushing the limits of that cartridge".

If you're not running 10mm at 10mm velocities, why waste your time with the expensive brass? I don't know if you've noticed but target-loaded .40 S&W will also make the same hole in the paper.

And if you don't have a specific fetish for the holes being .40" in diameter, why not shoot light 9mm loads?

I'll tell you why I shoot 10mm...because I feel like it. And it happens to be a cartridge that can be loaded at a power factor well over 200 without pushing the limits of the cartridge...you just need to use a gun that's actually built to handle 10mm.
 
I just hope one day one of you can explain me the necessity of pushing the limits of that cartridge for the benefit of poking the same hole on the paper 30 yards away , considering the consequences.

Well to be blunt, most people aren't boring. Unneccesary for many of us for sure but different strokes for different folks right? We could all baby our pistols shooting the lowest powered load that will allow the gun to function, but most of us don't...
 
Your analogy of a 1911's functioning is quite correct,,,

You may have a point that a linkless system, like the one in this case, is perhaps weaker, inherently, than the classic Browning design of the 1911 for the time-pressure curve of a 10 mm. Glock, on the other hand, seems to handle 10 mm power without problems but it has no locking lugs to damage to begin with. So, we're coming back to the locking lugs and the reason for the damage. I still believe that the main culprit here is the metal treatment. Another point that I see referred to very often is the recoil spring role in the whole issue and I believe that there's a lack of understanding, to a certain extent, of what the recoil spring really does. A recoil spring in its "relaxed" position (slide all the way forward) does not exert much of a force on the slide-barrel assembly, as evidenced by the easiness of insertion after disassembly. So, upon firing, the initial recoil speed of the barrel-slide system is limited only by the mass of the system not the strength of the recoil spring. As the latter compresses, it starts retarding the slide-barrel speed rearward but it's still the mass of the system that plays the major factor until the barrel tilts out of the way, an event that is defined by geometry of barrel-slide and locking mechanism rather than spring rating. So, the main role of the spring is to reduce recoil impact of the slide against the frame and to return the slide-barrel back into battery. Increasing spring strength is the wrong way to attempt to correct an early barrel-slide separation or metallurgy problems.

Yes I agree with your analogy of how a 1911 (the ingenious design it really is) should properly function and specifically in regard to slide velocity and the resultant slide to frame battering where the 10 mil is roughly 22% faster than a comparable .45acp in a 1911. This is why in fact Colt went to the not all that effective double mainspring modification in a vain attempt to address the additional stresses and further retard the rearward travel before the lugs disengaged. I also agree with your statements about slide mass being a major factor to the functioning issue as the 10 mil would soon destroy a conventional 1911. But there is also a noticeable difference in a standard 1911 in .45 acp (usually an 18-20 lb. spring) and the 10 mil (a recommended 25 lb. single spring) when reinserting the mainspring. The additions of aftermarket mods such as shock buffs and full length guide rods are necessary to give the Delta Elite some extra lifespan as many a stock Delta did not survive in the absence of these mods. But on the other hand I question whether useing the Glock design is the right yardstick here even though we are talking about the 10 mil in both guns. If we give proper maintenance as in changing mainsprings after say, 750 round intervals, proper and equal cleaning and lubeing regimens to both designs and using the same factory ammo, the Glock 20 would likely give up the ghost after about 50,000 rounds with no possibility for a rebuild where the Delta might only require a frame/rail tightening and replacement of the barrel link and pin and be good for a lifespan of over 70,000 rounds or more. From what I've been told about Glock 20's versus most 10MM 1911's, the 1911 wins hands down. I say I've been told this as in all honesty I've never owned a Glock but I've had 2 Delta's since they were new (about 20 & 25 years now)and really like the cartridge and the gun and both are still running fine. My two friends who have had new Glock 20's both say they'd never buy a used one without first seeing it. I personally see the 10MM cartridge as similar to the .44 Rem. mag, both being highly abused when handloaded.
But more to your point about the metalurgy issue and I apologise for getting so far off the thread topic here but I don't see the evidence of a brittle condition to the slide that an anomoly in metalurgy would indicate. Maybe it's just the photo as the owner says it's actually worse that it shows.
Great talking with you.
 
The only 1911 design that can handle 10mm as well or better than a Glock 20 is the LAR Grizzly. No comparison otherwise. 1911s have much more muzzle flip and are battered much faster. My original 20 has some holster wear otherwise it disn't look much worse for wear than a lightly used G17 I just sold. It has well over 10,000 rounds through it.
 
The Forgotton 10 ?

The only 1911 design that can handle 10mm as well or better than a Glock 20 is the LAR Grizzly. No comparison otherwise. 1911s have much more muzzle flip and are battered much faster. My original 20 has some holster wear otherwise it disn't look much worse for wear than a lightly used G17 I just sold. It has well over 10,000 rounds through it.

While I will concede to most all of your statements in relevance to all commercially made 10MM's and especially with the LAR Grizzly for it's obvious strength attributes, there was one that most gunny's may not even know existed. And that was the Bren Ten, which in fact gave birth to the 10MM Auto Colt cartridge. Made by Dornaus & Dixon and being the brainchild of the late, great Jeff Cooper and a few of his chronies who wanted something better than a "wonder nine", had a mag capacity greater than the .45 auto and also equalled or bettered the stopping power of the .357 mag. Sadly for reasons of supply agreements with the makers of the magazine the Bren Ten died before they made 900 units as the last 100 or so were shipped without a mag. Which is why today the mags go for an arm and a leg and the gun itself will cost you your other leg. ($3,000.00 or better) . I know as I almost signed over my first born child to acquire one in Detroit for the pricely sum in 1987 of U.S. $1,100.00 @ an exchange rate of around 35%. So all I got to do was fondle it like a new girlfriend for about 2 minutes. But the point is as I believe it that the Bren Ten did in fact handle the Norma load of the day which would do serious harm to most of the current crop of 10 MM 's excluding of course the LAR. With the extensive testing that was done on the Bren Ten, it survived admirably. Too bad no one has picked up on that one since as all it was was a variant of the early CZ design unfortunately coming from the former Commie block country of Czecholslovakia and subject to the then U.S. embargo. Cooper and D&D actually acquired their CZ's through back channels if you will from guess where? Good old Canada. And they did blow a number of them up before it was refined to production status. It fit the hand like NO other semi, then or now. The recoil of the Norma load was stated as manageable and the Bren Ten handled it well. It didn't do any harm for the TV series Miami Vice and Sonny Crocket either.
 
I just hope one day one of you can explain me the necessity of pushing the limits of that cartridge for the benefit of poking the same hole on the paper 30 yards away , considering the consequences.

Because some people like bigger bangs and more recoil, just for fun. I like to shoot .44 Mag at paper, both light loads and full power loads. Surely that is stupid, too? It's a good thing that we don't all like the same things or the world would be a boring place.

Mark
 
I just hope one day one of you can explain me the necessity of pushing the limits of that cartridge for the benefit of poking the same hole on the paper 30 yards away , considering the consequences.

With reasoning like that we would be only shooting 22 LR handguns, I am pondering the purchase of a 10 mm and currently shoot up to 500 S&W.
 
I have an EAA Witness 10mm.

Thing is built like a tank, and has seen 1000+ rounds of 200gr handloads in the 1250 to 1275 FPS.

I did do a few mods to mine.

Smoothed bolt face.

Cut down ejector to keep it from launching brass 50 ft.

Changed the recoil spring, firing pin spring and magazine springs to wolf.

Polished the feed ramp, and edges of the chamber.

Super accurate gun by the way with 180gr Golden Saber.


For anyone wanting good load info...check out this forum.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67
 
The only 1911 design that can handle 10mm as well or better than a Glock 20 is the LAR Grizzly. No comparison otherwise. 1911s have much more muzzle flip and are battered much faster. My original 20 has some holster wear otherwise it disn't look much worse for wear than a lightly used G17 I just sold. It has well over 10,000 rounds through it.

Is this just your opinion or do you have some information to back it up? I have a Norinco with a 20lb recoil spring in it that shoots 45-08 cartridges just fine using 200 gr bullets at 1250fps. Gunnar in Pr. George told me the same load worked well in Para LDA's suitably sprung.

Freedom Ventures is the importer and distributor for Tanfoglio pistols for Canada. Have you discussed your problem with Sean? He is a good guy and pretty easy to get hold of. I have never known him to hide.

Take Care

Bob
 
I hesitated to post this link to avoid a necro thread, but oh well. My opinion has certainly changed in the years since I posted. My gun was neither bought not imported through freedom ventures so there would have been no point in contacting them. I was taken care of and have long since sold the gun with full disclosure of its history. I have been through nearly a dozen 10mm pistols since this and don't have anything bad to say about any but this one. To be fair, comparing these low end pistols to the Tanfoglio guns seen in competition is not fair. I'd buy another in 10mm but I won't be trying another $500 EAA.
 
Ah sorry old thread. The EAA Witness guns are EAA marked Tanfoglio guns as you likely know. There is no difference in the two. While fit and finish are different the steels in the Tanfoglios would not be any different from one gun to the next on purpose.

I have a 5", Model "L" which is certainly not spring like their top and guns nor is the trigger anything like the Stock 111 for instance but for all of that slide fit is excellent. The bluing on the gun was no hell but the gun has been dead nits reliable with both the 9MM and 40cal top ends. The trigger with lighter springs, is passable and has not changed much after a combined total of over 10K rounds. Other than that the gun is very accurate. I think I could buy a 10MM top end for it and should get hold of Sean. Not sure I need a 10MM but then when did need ever come into a decision to buy another pistol or in this case another top end. LOL

Take Care

Bob
 
After the repairs I imagine the gun was a perfectly reliable and durable machine. With the blued replacement slide the two tone look was very slick as well. I honestly don't know why I sold it. Mostly just frustration over the whole situation and subsequent wait I suppose. The new owner must be happy with it as well, I told him to let me know if any issues ever came up and never heard anything.
 
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