Tavor advice, Yes or No??

[BenL]

$2800 on the cgn equipment exchange is what they go for. I would never be able to afford an new one either. Got mine there used in exc condition for $2650 a few years ago.

There is one selling in the EE for.......$6,750

It does come with, and I quote, a "sniper stock kit"

There's also one on consignment for sale @ Prophet River, with a Bushnell Elite 4200, for $3,700+taxes.

There's a deal...and then there are these deals!!

 

[evolture]

In a world where we are spolied by m4 customization:

The only draw back I can see with the swiss rifle is "sights" options. If the flat top model had a rail where the front sight was AND there was a selection of iron sights available that could mount on the front or rear sight positions, the swiss rifle would be a winner for sure. These sights would have to be "swiss" height so cheek risers were not mandatory.

If the gen 2 tavors full length rail is sturdy, I say it is a better general purpose rifle because of the sight options.

 

[dizzy]

check and see where Tavor's are now being fielded, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of armies now looking at switching over to Tavor's and not just for warm climate applications. Israelis built these for their own use in warm weather, sure, but the 'weather' testing did not stop in Jerusalem. You will have NO issues shooting in the NWT with a Tavor, heck after the first shot or two the rifle is warm anyhow, just lube appropriately, in winter I wouldn't use much more than ezzox. Condensation will pose more of a problem than anything. you can buy hornady tap ammo 75 gr which is more than enough for wolves out to 300M. Heck the 223 has been a rifle of choice for all duties in many parts of the north for many years and many friends wouldn't be caught without theirs. I like Swiss Arms for various reasons, but would not hesitate to switch over to Tavor lock stock and barrel if called to. Tavors are plenty accurate once you get a master pulling the trigger. Its a battle trigger for high stress urban combat, which is NOT range work. Put a master behind that rifle and you have a winner hands down. Don't let the naysayers fool you, its one helluva platform, period.

 

[plainSight Solutions]

There is one selling in the EE for.......$6,750

It does come with, and I quote, a "sniper stock kit"

There's a deal...and then there are these deals!!

With all due respect, before attempting to disrespect/discredit board supporting dealer members (i.e. the people who help pay the bills to keep this board going and who, presumably, you might one day expect to do business with) and their auctions, you should do a little research.

The "sniper stock kit" that seems to offend your sensibilities is a top quality reproduction of components for of an otherwise unobtainable Swiss Arms variant that typically sells for over $9k in Canada. The kits are manufacturered in Europe (by only one company) and by the time you import one, they cost around $3k CDN. I would know, I imported 10, all of which sold. The rifle you are citing as a "bad deal" also comes with a B&T free floating quad-rail (another premium piece of kit) as well as 800 rounds of ammo. To an informed individual, the price is actually quite reasonable.

...look forward to picking-over and criticizing your future auctions =o)

 

[BenL]

With all due respect, before attempting to disrespect/discredit board supporting dealer members (i.e. the people who help pay the bills to keep this board going and who, presumably, you might one day expect to do business with) and their auctions, you should do a little research.

The "sniper stock kit" that seems to offend your sensibilities is a top quality reproduction of components for of an otherwise unobtainable Swiss Arms variant that typically sells for over $9k in Canada. The kits are manufacturered in Europe (by only one company) and by the time you import one, they cost around $3k CDN. I would know, I imported 10, all of which sold. The rifle you are citing as a "bad deal" also comes with a B&T free floating quad-rail (another premium piece of kit) as well as 800 rounds of ammo. To an informed individual, the price is actually quite reasonable.

...look forward to picking-over and criticizing your future auctions =o)

LOL

Guess you didn't pick up on the "" (i.e Sarcastic smilie) that was included in my comment, in regards to the "sniper stock kit". I know exactly what kit that is; your presumption that I don't is funny nontheless.

Sensibilites offended? Not likely, but thanks for asking. Seems as though you took exception to it.

And please I do encourage you do pick-over and critizes my future auctions (well, there's no such thing as "auctions" in the EE, but tomato-tamato right).

 

[Steve Janes]

check and see where Tavor's are now being fielded, there are a lot, and I mean a lot of armies now looking at switching over to Tavor's and not just for warm climate applications. Israelis built these for their own use in warm weather, sure, but the 'weather' testing did not stop in Jerusalem. You will have NO issues shooting in the NWT with a Tavor, heck after the first shot or two the rifle is warm anyhow, just lube appropriately, in winter I wouldn't use much more than ezzox. Condensation will pose more of a problem than anything. you can buy hornady tap ammo 75 gr which is more than enough for wolves out to 300M. Heck the 223 has been a rifle of choice for all duties in many parts of the north for many years and many friends wouldn't be caught without theirs. I like Swiss Arms for various reasons, but would not hesitate to switch over to Tavor lock stock and barrel if called to. Tavors are plenty accurate once you get a master pulling the trigger. Its a battle trigger for high stress urban combat, which is NOT range work. Put a master behind that rifle and you have a winner hands down. Don't let the naysayers fool you, its one helluva platform, period.

The Tavor IS a great rifle, but not ideal for the OP's applications. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise, for at least 2 of the OP's original idea's, there have been some alternative options suggested by some that will be superior to the Tavor in at least these categories.

4) -40 winter conditions (One person reports 10% failure rate at -10c, another source reports reliable function to -25c)
5) 300m shooting competitions (A Tavor in a 300m comp, let's be real here, in no way was this rifle designed for 300m accuracy shooting PERIOD, also no one on CGN appears to have shot their Tavor out this far for group)

 

[Jerengineer]

5) 300m shooting competitions (A Tavor in a 300m comp, let's be real here, in no way was this rifle designed for 300m accuracy shooting PERIOD, also no one on CGN appears to have shot their Tavor out this far for group)

I forgot to mention we do these 300m with open sights... prone, kneeling, sitting, standing. Can TAR 21 hit the page at 300, I'm guessing it probably can.

 

[Steve Janes]

I forgot to mention we do these 300m with open sights... prone, kneeling, sitting, standing. Can TAR 21 hit the page at 300, I'm guessing it probably can.

There is no doubt it can be "hit the page" at 300m

What kind of rifle cannot "hit the page" at 300m

 

[plainSight Solutions]

LOL

Guess you didn't pick up on the "" (i.e Sarcastic smilie) that was included in my comment, in regards to the "sniper stock kit". I know exactly what kit that is; your presumption that I don't is funny nontheless.

Sensibilites offended? Not likely, but thanks for asking. Seems as though you took exception to it.

And please I do encourage you do pick-over and critizes my future auctions (well, there's no such thing as "auctions" in the EE, but tomato-tamato right).

Apologies to the OP on the derail, however BenL, you're backpeddaling.

If your intention was sarcasm (which really doesn't make sense in the context) you shouldn't have used the "rolls eyes" emoticon. Whether the selection of that emoticon was intentional or not, it sends a clear message (that's what they are for).

Next, if you "know exactly what kit that is" then you should have had some sense of what they cost, plus the cost of the B&T rail, plus the cost of the ammo, and should have understood that $6,750 isn't a bad price. Instead, you attempted to highlight that particular auction as a bad deal, in a thread that entered into discussion of the pricing of used Swiss Arms rifles... It's clear what your intention was, so why attempt to obfuscate that now.

Anyone with an understanding and appreciation of these types of rifles would most likely ignore your slag, however it paints the originator of that auction (call it what you like), in a negative light (i.e. asking "way" too much for something). As he has been a long standing dealer on these boards and in the community in general, I did take exception to your comment, with good reason. Perhaps if you used these boards in the manner that many of the dealers do (i.e. to conduct business and earn a living), you would understand.

As to the original topic:

...
3) Hunting wolves (not at the range, so ya, non-restricted a must) - .223/5.56 is not quite sufficient for wolves - I hunt wolves as do a number of my friends/associates, some of whom are dedicated wolf hunters/trappers. Granted, great shot placement would allow for a kill, however wolves can prove exceptionally durable with less than optimal hits involving 100+ grain bullets. Furthermore, with the anti's scrutiny over the wolf-kill issue, there is a bit of an obligation to consider the ethics of a particular caliber.

4) -40 winter conditions - Apparently the x95 (Tar-21 variant) has been tested down to -60C and proved reliable, although the testing of the Swiss Arms has been more extreme and highly documented.

 

[Steve Janes]

Apparently the x95 (Tar-21 variant) has been tested down to -60C and proved reliable

plainSight Solutions, In no way am I trying to call you out, in fact after TV Press Pass said his Tavor worked in -25c, I actually believe -60c to be possible, but where did you come by this "apparent" information, I would love to read more about this testing.

There is one selling in the EE for.......$6,750

It does come with, and I quote, a "sniper stock kit"

BenL, plainSight Solutions is right, while I don't really care, the above quote clearly suggests that the Swiss is far more expensive than you believe it should be. Good deal or not, Swiss rifle's can be had for as cheap as $2500, so why post about one that is almost double the price of a new one?

I am still convinced people who complain about the price of some of these high end Black Rifles are just jealous they can't afford to own them themselves

 

[Jerengineer]

3) Hunting wolves (not at the range, so ya, non-restricted a must) - .223/5.56 is not quite sufficient for wolves - I hunt wolves as do a number of my friends/associates, some of whom are dedicated wolf hunters/trappers. Granted, great shot placement would allow for a kill, however wolves can prove exceptionally durable with less than optimal hits involving 100+ grain bullets. Furthermore, with the anti's scrutiny over the wolf-kill issue, there is a bit of an obligation to consider the ethics of a particular caliber.

I've never used a 223 (aside from the C7, but obviously not for hunting) but after looking at the ballistics data I wasn't really happy with it. Its about the only thing thats leading me away from the Tavor, too bad you can't get it in 308. You can't argue with how BADASS it looks! .... maybe I'll get it anyway...

 

[Steve Janes]

I've never used a 223 but after looking at the ballistics data I wasn't really happy with it. Its about the only thing thats leading me away from the Tavor, too bad you can't get it in 308. You can't argue with how BADASS it looks! .... maybe I'll get it anyway...

XCR's come in 6.8mm that would at least be more sufficient for wolves, and then you could get a caliber conversion kit to shoot the tons of 5.56 you have access too.

If bull-pup cool is what your after, and we can find someone who knows the RFB will function in -40c, then it would be a fine choice too, I have no experience but there are several users on CGN who have confirmed they are reliable and while not bolt rifle accurate, can be tuned to shoot very admirably with hand loads.

 

[BenL]

In no way am I trying to call you out, in fact after TV Press Pass said his Tavor worked in -25c, I actually believe -60c to be possible, but where did you come by this apparent information, I would love to more about this testing.



BenL, plainSight Solutions is right, while I don't really care, the above quote clearly suggests that the Swiss is far more expensive than you believe it should be. Good deal or not, Swiss rifle's can be had for as cheap as $2500, so why post about one that is almost double the price of a new one?

I am still convinced people who complain about the price of some of these high end Black Rifles are just jealous they can't afford to own them themselves

Sigh. If a newb has posted a question asking about the aforementioned SNIPER stock kit for a SAN, he would have had his arse thorn apart 3 ways till Sunday.

But I guess that again, the sarcasm wasn't spread on thick enough. Next time I'll make sure that I make it more obvious.

 

[blaxsun]

Back on topic... Having re-reviewed all the criteria from the OP, there's really only one option that will let him do everything he wants - but it's going to run him closer to $4k. A used/mint Swiss Arms with a custom/match 300BLK barrel from Herron Arms.

• Reloading and unlimited brass; 300BLK uses 5.56mm case
• Hunting; 300BLK supersonic is 110-115 grain, more accurate than 5.56mm and ballistics are very close to 6.8SPC
• -40°C winter conditions; it's the only one out of the group that is guaranteed to perform - no question
• 300m shooting competitions; should be a tack driver

Addendum: Further to this, you could also get a Swiss Arms carbine (restricted) and put a NR 300BLK barrel with integrated flash hider (which reduces the barrel length by about 2"). There has been at least one done up this way.

 

[J996]

I forgot to mention we do these 300m with open sights... prone, kneeling, sitting, standing. Can TAR 21 hit the page at 300, I'm guessing it probably can.

The thing that will hurt you there is the short sight radius. Tavor was designed to use optics, its irons are meant for backup emergency use. having re-read all your requirements if it were me it would be between these two:

First choice: M14. 26" sight radius, best iron sights ever made, .308 for the extra punch, works in the artic (PM Otokiak, ask how he has his set up for -60) I would stay away from Springfield, they don't build em like they used to. LRB Arms is the way to go, quality that you will hand down to your kids. Put a SEI scope mount on it and you can QD the scope for hunting and use the irons for competition.

Second Choice: Swiss Arms. The Diopter sights are very good (you can get an Iris for the rear sight for even more precise shooting), very reliable, built to last. On a diopter model mounting optics will be a bit more challenging as you have to get it right so your scope just clears the rear drum but its workable.

 

[plainSight Solutions]

plainSight Solutions, In no way am I trying to call you out, in fact after TV Press Pass said his Tavor worked in -25c, I actually believe -60c to be possible, but where did you come by this "apparent" information, I would love to read more about this testing.

No problem.

Here is a link to a press release extolling the alleged temperature tolerance of the Tavor:
http://www.strategicdefenceintellig...ee-calibre_conversion_kit_for_x95_assault_ri/

This press release cites the same info that I have seen in other releases, however I cannot find anything remotely as conclusive as the tests and documentation related to the SA tests.

There is no reason to doubt it however; when one considers the armed forces that have adopted this weapon (who essentially get whatever they want, price being no object) it is safe to assume that the Tavor is a reliable piece of kit.

 

[JBD]

Hi Folks,



Questions:
1) Can I do this with reasonable add-ons (including optics) for less than 3000?
2) Does it fit my shooting needs?
3) What add-ons should I be ordering?
4) Who should I buy from?

1. No tavor runs about 2700 does not leave much room in budget for optics
2. Not really. Most reviews suggest that accuracy is not that great, so you would be at a slight disadvantage in a service rifle style competition.

 

[boss351cleveland]

It hasn't been colder than -5 this winter on the west coast, unless he took it inland and even then it's still been quite mild this year.

Well i work in Prince George every winter , and bought my Tavor in 2009. WTF u think im lying or trolling lol

 

[boss351cleveland]

Thats interesting Boss. I used to have problems with my Tavor short stroking, but that was a different issue.

How cold are we talking here?

I've taken my Tavor out in -20 and -25 days multiple times, but unfortunately I've never had the ballsiness or opportunity to try minus forty. Its always performed admirably, even after spending some time in the snow.

If you are out in minus 40, do think about what you're using for lube.

As far as accuracy goes, people like to give the Tavor guff for being in 2MOA range. Personally, I feel like the rifle is more accurate than I am still (maybe that doesn't say much about me as a shooter) but I have no problem getting it to hit what I aim at, as long as my optic is properly zeroed.

Part of the accuracy problem comes from getting used to the trigger. Its stiff: don't shoot it like you're Vasily Zaytsev. Shoot it like a fricken combat rifle. I try to run a handful of snap caps on a regular basis so I can stay in the mood with the Tavor trigger.

The Tavor likes heavier loads. I'm taking some hornady 77gr out tomorrow to shoot video with. We'll see what kind of results I come back with.

Thanks .. I was having problems with the rifle around -10 -15 ( btw this was in Prince George last winter ) I did have chips out of my bolt hold open tab also , then just quit using pmags .. But this issue was short stroking , the bolt was not traveling back enough to strip off another round .. Maybe i just had a bad apple .. I had no issues with accuracy , was more than good enough for a infantry type rifle , trigger took some getting used to but not a huge issue ..

 

[boss351cleveland]

How "sub-zero"? Under-gassed does not seem to be a problem on the Tavor.



I know a few people who plan to post some results with heavier ammunition, but I think they've been waiting on the weather.



The Swiss Arms is way overpriced for the rifle. $4k by the time you even get around to adding the optic...

Mine was short stroking about 10% of the time around -10 , this means the bolt would not cycle back far enough to strip off another round from the mag, the gun could have just been a lemon ? .. I bought my Tavor in 2009 from the second batch if i remember right .. I payed $100 less for my Swiss Arms than the Tavor , yes the Tavor has that very bad Mepro red dot but the irons on the Swiss are far better than that POS red dot.