Tavor vs AR, Apples to Apples Comparison Part 1 (50 yards)

No magic about it Mardigan. If you are gonna fight with a gun under any conditions, any place, any time - the AR is the better platform because of its adaptability and it's inherent accuracy. Until Tavor gives us heavy barrels we are stuck with a service rifle and that's it. The AR edges us out on sniper work with heavy barrel variants...and some of their shorties are every bit as handy as our Tavors. Anyone that thinks the man with the Tavor is undergunned though - is in for a very rude surprise.
In the real world this all is so much turd polishing - it is tactics that win battles and firefights for the most part. You will notice as you hang around the gun nutz that they get hung up on equipment. The best weapon you have is the one between your ears - provided it's loaded. In a tactical situation, when the lead flies you hit the dirt and evaluate your position - and no bones about it.
 
beltfed said:
That's pretty funny. And completely a$$-backwards.
A rifles' accuracy will be far more important to shooters who shoot from dynamic positions and under stress or movement than any bench shooter.
Case in point using a simple interpolation:
Shooter 'A' uses an AR with a combined accuracy (rifle and ammo) of 2 moa. The shooter is good for 5-6 moa in a kneeling or squatting position (the field position he is dealt with in this particular instance) at 300m on a moving target. Combined accuracy of the rifleman with kit is 7-8 moa for a total of approx. 21"-24" diameter hit radius - assuming an 18" diameter target, 75-85 percent chance of effective fire on this target.
Shooter 'B' uses a Tavor with a combined accuracy (rifle and ammo) of 5-6moa. The shooter is good for 5-6 moa in a kneeling or squatting position (the same shooter and field position he is dealt with above) at 300m on a moving target. Combined accuracy of the rifleman with kit is 10-12moa for a total of approx. 30"-36" diameter hit radius - assuming same 18" wide target, 50-60 percent chance of effective fire on this target.
Obviously it isn't as simple as this, but pretty close. If you think accuracy doesn't matter, then cudos to you.
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Sounds like some mumbo jumbo to me. Too many variables. This isn't a case of simple math, what about streadyness? Is shooter A is more steady with his Tavor than he is with an AR where dose that leave us? I know the accuracy of the Tavor isn't anything impressive, but I know first hand that it'll make a centre mass hit it 300 yards.

By your logic a M82 will be more accurate in all positions, that's simply not the case.

But none of that really matters. I thought this thread is about compairing two CQB rifles. What is it you want most in a rifle of this type, accuracy, or a more compact rifle with better ballistics?
 
One Lung Wonder said:
No magic about it Mardigan. If you are gonna fight with a gun under any conditions, any place, any time - the AR is the better platform because of its adaptability and it's inherent accuracy. Until Tavor gives us heavy barrels we are stuck with a service rifle and that's it. The AR edges us out on sniper work with heavy barrel variants...and some of their shorties are every bit as handy as our Tavors. Anyone that thinks the man with the Tavor is undergunned though - is in for a very rude surprise.
In the real world this all is so much turd polishing - it is tactics that win battles and firefights for the most part. You will notice as you hang around the gun nutz that they get hung up on equipment. The best weapon you have is the one between your ears - provided it's loaded. In a tactical situation, when the lead flies you hit the dirt and evaluate your position - and no bones about it.
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This and reflexes and training are the best weapons for survival. A wannabe with what they consider the best firearm in the world still won't stand a chance against someone properly trained with even a handgun.

The comparisons I'll be doing still only show which one I'M better with. The best rifle out there is the one YOU are the best with, even if that's a Norc. Lol
 
Most shooters can't push the limits of their rifles. I guess in general they are happier people.

This is not intended as a slight, but might help explain the difference of opinion between people who are shooting enthusiasts and people who shoot or have shot professionally.
 
Camaro, nice job. Thank you for posting it.
The pictures say it all.
Pretty consistant overall. We should all be so lucky on a regular basis.

Everything good but the Norinco 55gr.

Back to the comparisons of left handed bear defense from space while standing on one leg at a urinal discussion.
 
Gunnerlove said:
Most shooters can't push the limits of their rifles. I guess in general they are happier people.

This is not intended as a slight, but might help explain the difference of opinion between people who are shooting enthusiasts and people who shoot or have shot professionally.
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Believe me, I'd like to just take your word for it that the AR is better. But it seems that even the professionals can have varying opinions.

What is it exactly that makes you right, and these guys wrong?

 
another good point is that the female shooters seem to really really love the tavor, considering the female infantry ratio in the idf, thats pretty relevant.
My wife shoots my tavor like a frigging boss...
 
Madmardigan said:
Believe me, I'd like to just take your word for it that the AR is better. But it seems that even the professionals can have varying opinions.

What is it exactly that makes you right, and these guys wrong?

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He says the Tavor has made up ground and it is the first Bullpup he has shot and not hated. People hear what they want to hear I heard "the Tavor doesn't suck" You hear "the Tavor is equal to the AR". I fully agree, the Tavor is not junk, I think it will probably show itself to be the most durable nonrestricted offering currently available to Canadians. However I can not think of a situation where I would take it over a mid length AR.
Watch the mag changes at 10:00, what is he not doing that he would demand of his students?
 
In the end I wouldn't say one platform is better then the other for what they were designed for. They are both designed as combat rifles. They are both used as combat rifles. I would say both are equal to the task as a combat rifle. In the end its comes down to how well trained the operator is with the firearm that determines which firearm is best IMO.

Now If you are comparing accuracy on a bench rest, then yes the AR is superior platform. However both rifles were not designed to be sat on the bench and fired to see who can get the tightest group. The AR platform has had a 45 year head start to get its moa down so I cant really fault the Tavor. Over time I imagine we will see the Tavor tighten its groups up comparable to the AR as barrels and mods become available.

The fan boys, Sunday shooters or the professional operators can voice their opinions on why one is better then the other. But in the end they are splitting hairs in my opinion for what they were designed to do. The best platform is the one you are best trained and experienced with.

Here is a nice clip of a mag change on a tavor. I couldn't even come close to that speed on either platform. It all comes down to practice and experience in the end. This guy certainly has done his.
[youtube]5_ULLl-8jk0[/youtube]
 
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Gunnerlove said:
He says the Tavor has made up ground and it is the first Bullpup he has shot and not hated. People hear what they want to hear I heard "the Tavor doesn't suck" You hear "the Tavor is equal to the AR". I fully agree, the Tavor is not junk, I think it will probably show itself to be the most durable nonrestricted offering currently available to Canadians. However I can not think of a situation where I would take it over a mid length AR.
Watch the mag changes at 10:00, what is he not doing that he would demand of his students?
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I caught that too, he's looking at the mag well. But that appeared to be the first time he's used a Tavor. If he had as much expierance with the Tavor as he has with an AR I'm sure his proformance would of been better. I've spent a lot of time practicing mag changes with my Tavor, and once you've done it enough its pretty easy to keep your eyes on target.
For the record I don't think one is better than the other. Thier both battle proven rifles. We're not compairing a su-16 to a Tavor where clearly one is better than the other. I don't think soldiers who use the Tavor are dropping like flies because they didnt use a M4. The Tavor is reliable, durible, it can run dirty, it dosent require a lot of mataince, and its accurate enough for its intended purpose. All were arguing about is personal prefernce, there is no definitive answer to witch one is better. Both have their pros and cons, its up to the individual to decide what's best for him.
 
But what is Travis H and the guy in the above video not doing before jamming a new mag into a rifle that has stopped going bang?

It is easy to be fast when you practice half the complete drill over and over again.
 
Gunnerlove said:
But what is Travis H and the guy in the above video not doing before jamming a new mag into a rifle that has stopped going bang?

It is easy to be fast when you practice half the complete drill over and over again.
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They didn't look at the ejection port to see if it was actually empty and not a failure?
How is that the guns fault?
 
If people are forced by their equipment to take shortcuts in the attempt to be as fast as they would be with an AR...............

Well all the above arguments are best demonstrated and settled on the range. Well unless you are Evil Edie.
 
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Gunnerlove said:
If people are forced by their equipment to take shortcuts in the attempt to be as fast as they would be with an AR...............

Well all the above arguments are best demonstrated and settled on the range. Well unless you are Evil Edie.
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LOL! How do you assume from any of those videos that they are forced by their equipment to take shortcuts?

When I load 10 rounds in a mag and fire 10 rounds from it, I don't check the chamber before reloading either. None of my equipment forces me to do that.

At least you're right about it being settled on the range. I'll settle the best for me on the range, you can settle it for you, and everyone else can do it for themselves as well.
 
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