Tavor vs. Swiss Arms

Personally I wouldn't change the barrel on something that has even a small chance of going prohib.

The reason for this is I couldn't guarantee the RCMP would compensate you for your conversion costs.

you are better off just shooting the carbine at the range as much as you can and deciding what to do after we find out.
 
Caleb314 said:
I think it would just be easier to special order one configuered for left hand use through your local gun store and not have to pay the extra 200$.

Also what do you need the barrel wrench for when converting to left handed use?
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If they are coming from the factory already converted over, it might make sense to just buy one that way.
You may want to consider re-sale however as the majority shoot right handed -that may or may not matter.
The barrel needs to come out for the conversion procedure (iirc), but is a fairly simple process that can be done with a few tools on a bench - check the armour's manual.
 
sell the swiss and buy a tavor and get the lefty bolt for it. converting it will take around a half hour. you will also learn about your new tavor at the same time to. go to the range or local gun shop and find one to fondle. you will have your answer on what to do after doing that.
 
Gotta love the paranoid fever surrounding the SAN guns. Just be careful who you listen to, some are basing there statements on worst case scenario fear, and ignoring the facts, others are twisting the facts for their own gain. We have business's screwing each other, and getting caught in blatant lies to the firearms community as a whole. The dirt, and deceit in this story run deep. I find it funny how some people will PM me asking for any new details I have on the SAN situation and then when they dislike what they hear, start spouting off their own crazy theory's, if they didn't want to listen, then why the F*** did they ask? The entire SAN issue has been beat to death, and all we can do now is hurry up and wait for the RCMP

The facts regarding the SAN situation are this:

1) The RCMP asked the Canadian distributors for documentation from SAN proving the linage of the Canadian Made SAN rifles was in fact derived from the SG540 and not the SG550.

2) With the help of SAN and others in Switzerland, the Canadian Distributors put together a detailed information package proving the Canadian Made SAN rifles were built off the SG540.

3) This information package was submitted to the RCMP

4) The RCMP love to take as much time as they can and we all know this


If you can come up with a definitive answer regarding the SAN situation in Canada, based on this information, then you know more than I do. I know several individuals who have purchased both restricted and NR models of SAN guns since this whole thing started. Even I would not buy a Restricted SAN and feel 100% comfortable knowing that the RCMP verdict is not known yet. But to spread anything beyond the facts is not fair to those interested in SAN rifles.

As to the original question from the OP....Keep that SAN Carbine, it's a much nicer rifle than the Tavor in many ways. Certainly the most balanced SAN gun and if it were NR I am sure most SAN users would be shooting the 14.3" Carbine......I know I would! On top of this, you won't get what it's worth selling it on the EE right now, the fear people have of the RCMP lowers the price beyond reasonable. I say bight the bullet so to speak and buy the Tavor because you want it, and it's NR, then sell the SAN Carbine when this whole SAN thing blows over
 
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Steve Janes said:
Gotta love the paranoid fever surrounding the SAN guns. Just be careful who you listen to, most of these guys are basing there statements on worst case scenario fear, and ignoring the facts. I find it funny how some people will PM me asking for details on the SAN situation and then when they dislike what they hear, start spouting off their own crazy theory's. The entire SAN issue has been beat to death, and all we can do it wait.

The facts regarding the SAN situation are this:

1) The RCMP asked the Canadian distributors for documentation from SAN proving the linage of the Canadian Made SAN rifles was in fact derived from the SG540 and not the SG550.

2) With the help of SAN and others in Switzerland, the Canadian Distributors put together a detailed information package proving the Canadian Made SAN rifles were built off the SG540.

3) This information package was submitted to the RCMP

4) The RCMP love to take as much time as they can and we all know this


If you can come up with a definitive answer regarding the SAN situation in Canada, based on this information, then you know more than I do. I know several individuals who have purchased both restricted and NR models of SAN guns since this whole thing started. Even I would not buy a Restricted SAN and feel 100% comfortable knowing that the RCMP verdict is not known yet. But to spread anything beyond the facts is not fair to those interested in SAN rifles.

As to the original question from the OP....Keep that SAN Carbine, it's one of the nicer more balanced SAN guns and if it were NR I am sure most SAN would be shooting the 14.3" Carbine......I know I would!!![/QUOTE

I think the problem here is well we have so much concern about the hammer being dropped on the Swiss Arms rifle which the RCMP can do at a whim like in the past. We need people to focus on joining the NFA for a change, so few of us are out there. Fact is they have been eying that rifle for a while and now they have the excuse to ban it anyway they want and at anytime, it does not matter Swiss Arms sent a letter to them or not, if it did it would have been cleared up months ago. The can of worms is open, hopefully the RCMP is in a forgiving mood and lets us off like on other issues.

The truth is everyone that is going to buy this rifle should know the possibility of it being a costly purchase in the event of it being put on prohibited classification or confiscated, just not talking about it on here or removing it from threads is not fair to the purchaser.. they should know that is a possibility and a very strong one at that.

Join the NFA if you really care about these issues going away and write your MP or PM...
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Leibermuster said:
Steve Janes said:
Gotta love the paranoid fever surrounding the SAN guns. Just be careful who you listen to, most of these guys are basing there statements on worst case scenario fear, and ignoring the facts. I find it funny how some people will PM me asking for details on the SAN situation and then when they dislike what they hear, start spouting off their own crazy theory's. The entire SAN issue has been beat to death, and all we can do it wait.

The facts regarding the SAN situation are this:

1) The RCMP asked the Canadian distributors for documentation from SAN proving the linage of the Canadian Made SAN rifles was in fact derived from the SG540 and not the SG550.

2) With the help of SAN and others in Switzerland, the Canadian Distributors put together a detailed information package proving the Canadian Made SAN rifles were built off the SG540.

3) This information package was submitted to the RCMP

4) The RCMP love to take as much time as they can and we all know this


If you can come up with a definitive answer regarding the SAN situation in Canada, based on this information, then you know more than I do. I know several individuals who have purchased both restricted and NR models of SAN guns since this whole thing started. Even I would not buy a Restricted SAN and feel 100% comfortable knowing that the RCMP verdict is not known yet. But to spread anything beyond the facts is not fair to those interested in SAN rifles.

As to the original question from the OP....Keep that SAN Carbine, it's one of the nicer more balanced SAN guns and if it were NR I am sure most SAN would be shooting the 14.3" Carbine......I know I would!!!
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Fact is they have been eying that rifle for a while and now they have the excuse to ban it anyway they want and at anytime, it does not matter Swiss Arms sent a letter to them or not, if it did it would have been cleared up months ago. The can of worms is open, hopefully the RCMP is in a forgiving mood and lets us off like on other issues.

The truth is everyone that is going to buy this rifle should know the possibility of it being a costly purchase in the event of it being put on prohibited classification or confiscated, just not talking about it on here or removing it from threads is not fair to the purchaser.. they should know that is a possibility and a very strong one at that.
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More speculation...:rolleyes:

The truth is they should know the facts, not one individuals speculative opinion. None of what I have written is my own opinion, or speculative, just fact as they have been reported to me by the people involved. Listing completely speculative probabilities, and 60/40 statements, as you have in this thread, is a complete disservice to us all, and people should know your statements and speculation do not properly represent the facts as reported.
 
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Speculation of what...

Facts are it is being reviewed and its up the RCMP not what you or me think.

If I was a betting man I say 60/40 the hammer falls on the Swiss!

People should know the danger of what can happen, sorry if that devalues and hurts sales for this rifle, but this a forum is where we discuss the Pro vs Cons

Tavor
ACR
CSA 858
Swiss Arms
Xcf
Keltec RFB
Kriss
etc etc

Lots of options out there
 
Well I don't own either one. But I have fired several mags of each back to back. I'm a bigger dude at 6'4 and 235 lbs. To me the tavor was a POS. Felt like a plastic toy and the ergos don't suit me. The Swiss out shot the tavor in my hands and I would much rather have the Swiss. And the swiss doesn't spit clp in your eye either. Just my opinion to the OP.
 
cr5 said:
I wasn't impressed by the accuracy of the Swiss .
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When your rifle left the factory it was grouping within 10 cm at 300m or it would have never made it out the door. From what I have seen you post on that issue you only fed it one kind of ammo (AE if I recall?) and it did not like it. That's pretty far from a conclusive result that your rifle won't shoot.
 
J996 said:
When your rifle left the factory it was grouping within 10 cm at 300m or it would have never made it out the door. From what I have seen you post on that issue you only fed it one kind of ammo (AE if I recall?) and it did not like it. That's pretty far from a conclusive result that your rifle won't shoot.
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I've stated that many times on here so that it isn't taken as a definitive test of the Swiss. The point is that I shoot American Eagle 55gr black box 98% of the time so if the rifle can't shoot that well then it's no good to me.
The thing that turned me off of the rifle the most was the 5 inch point of impact shift when transitioning from the bipod to supporting it just in front of the magwell. As for the actual group sizes, the Swiss didn't like the AE ammo I was feeding it but my HK can shoot 6 different kinds of ammo into a smaller group that my Swiss ever did and the only ammo my HK doesn't like is AE 62gr FMJ. My Swiss also had a 2.5-16 Bushnell Elite 6500 and my HK only has a Specter DR 1-4 so the Swiss should have also had a huge advantage for shooting tight groups off the table.

Don't get defensive, I like the Swiss, it is a beautifully built rifle and has the smoothest action of any semi auto I've ever played with. It just didn't perform up to the expectations I had going in after reading as many posts about it on here as I could find.
 
HumanCulling said:
Read my signature...
I own a Swiss Arms & it can still outshoot me.
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WTF is that supposed to mean? So you can't shoot for sh!t? Maybe it's the rifle and not you.
It's a nice rifle but it can't touch the HK or a decent AR in the accuracy department.
In my opinion if it wasn't for the non restricted status there would be even less of them out there. 1200 sold in 12 years is not a lot so don't try to tell me they are extremely popular. They have a reputation and most people that lust for one have never had the chance to shoot one which is why when I had mine this past summer I posted on here offering to take anyone interested out to the range as my guest and let them run as much ammo through it as they wanted to (their ammo of course). I had 2 takers and both liked the rifle but were surprised by the POI shift depending how you held it.

I prohibited the two takers from running sh!t Norinco ammo through my rifle so they just used my AE and paid me for the ammo they used.
 
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Steve Janes said:
Gotta love the paranoid fever surrounding the SAN guns. Just be careful who you listen to, some are basing there statements on worst case scenario fear, and ignoring the facts, others are twisting the facts for their own gain. We have business's screwing each other, and getting caught in blatant lies to the firearms community as a whole. The dirt, and deceit in this story run deep. I find it funny how some people will PM me asking for any new details I have on the SAN situation and then when they dislike what they hear, start spouting off their own crazy theory's, if they didn't want to listen, then why the F*** did they ask? The entire SAN issue has been beat to death, and all we can do now is hurry up and wait for the RCMP

The facts regarding the SAN situation are this:

1) The RCMP asked the Canadian distributors for documentation from SAN proving the linage of the Canadian Made SAN rifles was in fact derived from the SG540 and not the SG550.

2) With the help of SAN and others in Switzerland, the Canadian Distributors put together a detailed information package proving the Canadian Made SAN rifles were built off the SG540.

3) This information package was submitted to the RCMP

4) The RCMP love to take as much time as they can and we all know this


If you can come up with a definitive answer regarding the SAN situation in Canada, based on this information, then you know more than I do. I know several individuals who have purchased both restricted and NR models of SAN guns since this whole thing started. Even I would not buy a Restricted SAN and feel 100% comfortable knowing that the RCMP verdict is not known yet. But to spread anything beyond the facts is not fair to those interested in SAN rifles.

As to the original question from the OP....Keep that SAN Carbine, it's a much nicer rifle than the Tavor in many ways. Certainly the most balanced SAN gun and if it were NR I am sure most SAN users would be shooting the 14.3" Carbine......I know I would! On top of this, you won't get what it's worth selling it on the EE right now, the fear people have of the RCMP lowers the price beyond reasonable. I say bight the bullet so to speak and buy the Tavor because you want it, and it's NR, then sell the SAN Carbine when this whole SAN thing blows over
Click to expand...


Your omitting one extremely important fact which I think is going to be the deal breaker.
Thanks to TSE's "control rifles" that turned out to be converted auto uppers it has been brought to light that there is now an unknown number of prohibited rifles floating around which are untraceable.
There could have been only the 2 TSE sent in or there could be 200 and there is no way to know.
I really hope the SAN comes through and is left off the prohibited list but I don't see how this can happen with the unknown number of prohibited uppers in circulation.

Plus the fact that should they decide to prohib these rifles there is absolutely no guarantee that anyone will get any compensation for their investment.

As someone else mentioned earlier. JOIN THE NFA. It's the only hope we have to fight this.
 
cr5 said:
I wasn't impressed by the accuracy of the Swiss and traded mine off. I don't think the Tavor is any better but at least the Tavor doesn't look like it might be going prohibited any time soon. That being said, good luck getting a decent price for your Swiss right now.
There aren't many options out there that are built as well as the Swiss but there is nothing wrong with the Tavor, HK SL8, XCR or the ACR, all are very different and it depends what you want it to do for you. If you don't care about the restricted status just get a decent AR as they will outshoot anything out there with a decent barrel installed, plus parts and accessories are everywhere and cheap.
Ian at Herron arms can rebarrel it and I think someone said CSC can do it as well. Steve Janes is the guy to ask about that but I wouldn't spend any money on one until the RCMP announce their decision.
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What type of ammo were you using? Please don't say Norinco. With iron sights and GP90 I can consistently put rounds into 10-12 cm circle at 300 m. Many of the members of my Swiss shooting club can do it regularly as well.
 
Why does everything in this forum turn into a bitter fight? It's the worst on the whole site for it.

My two cents, having owned both, and I used the Swiss a lot more due to time in ownership, Tavor is still going.

Swiss Arms Pros:

-Generally accurate.
-Good trigger by black rifle standards.
-Great iron sights.
-Folding stock makes OAL nice in transport.
-Very reliable.
-Built primarily of steel.

Swiss Arms cons:

-Mags, tilt & lock (AK / M14 etc etc style for those who haven't handled one). Few options for spare mags compared to AR mags, and my genuine Swiss mags cracked in the cold at the pinning rivet and the couplers snapped off, wasn't impressed. It is also limited to only 5 round mags unless you spend money and time with NEA, where the Tavor can use ten round AR pistol mags.
-Poor optics mounting, short rail, with iron sights interference unless you buy without sights, but then you're giving up excellent irons. Crappy compromise.
-Weight; this .223 weighs what an M14 does, and the weight hangs out front.
-Built primarily of steel.
-Possibly prohib in the future, not fair to slap the design with this, but well worth thinking about to a new buyer as the risk is real.
-Ergonomics, awkwardly placed selector for large hands, right side charging handle.

Tavor Pros:

-Shoots offhand like no other black rifle, for me. Balances like its part of you.
-Mags: Uses AR mags, and all the variations of those, including 10 round pistol mags being legal for it.
-Extremely short, at approximately the same length as a 14.5" M4 carbine with its stock collapsed, but ready to fire with an 18.6" rifle barrel.
-Ergonomics: selector is placed perfectly, left side charging handle, many ways to grip the rifle.
-Very reliable.
-Excellent optics mounting, very long rail, and accessory rail for lights, sling studs, etc. Excellent built in back up irons that hide away into the rail.

Tavor cons:

-Bullpup ergos aren't for everyone.
-Mag changes are comparable in speed to my Swiss for me thanks to drop free and a vertical push to seat, no rocking, but slower than AR.
-Very poor sling mounting (hole for string through stock, though there are options for a quick release swivel to replace it).
-Poor trigger. I like the Tavor as I like the Swiss, so I want to sugar coat it, but I cant as it's not very good.
-While notably lighter than the Swiss, and comparable to other black rifles, could be lighter.
-Lots of plastic, I did the -31C cold soak / ice / snow test to prove to myself and others it's tough as nails, but if you like classic steel guns, the Swiss is an older, classic steel design you'll appreciate. Tavor feels like the mid step to phasers and plasma rifles.
 
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