Tavor vs. Swiss Arms

J996 said:
When your rifle left the factory it was grouping within 10 cm at 300m or it would have never made it out the door. From what I have seen you post on that issue you only fed it one kind of ammo (AE if I recall?) and it did not like it. That's pretty far from a conclusive result that your rifle won't shoot.
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Yep the Swiss Arms is more than accurate enough, the only semi .223 rifle i have that will shoot better is my Colt 20'' Ar15 . A quality AR will almost always be more accurate than any piston rifle , less moving above the barrel . But for a non restricted .223 semi, i would say its the best shooter we have to pick from .. the SL8 is pretty accurate too
 
cr5 said:
I've stated that many times on here so that it isn't taken as a definitive test of the Swiss. The point is that I shoot American Eagle 55gr black box 98% of the time so if the rifle can't shoot that well then it's no good to me.
The thing that turned me off of the rifle the most was the 5 inch point of impact shift when transitioning from the bipod to supporting it just in front of the magwell. As for the actual group sizes, the Swiss didn't like the AE ammo I was feeding it but my HK can shoot 6 different kinds of ammo into a smaller group that my Swiss ever did and the only ammo my HK doesn't like is AE 62gr FMJ. My Swiss also had a 2.5-16 Bushnell Elite 6500 and my HK only has a Specter DR 1-4 so the Swiss should have also had a huge advantage for shooting tight groups off the table.

Don't get defensive, I like the Swiss, it is a beautifully built rifle and has the smoothest action of any semi auto I've ever played with. It just didn't perform up to the expectations I had going in after reading as many posts about it on here as I could find.
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Ok thanks for the clarification. The HK is a heavy barrel and is free floating so it would make sense that it is more accurate than a non-free floated rifle with a lighter profile barrel.
Sucks that AE did not work for yours. Mine loved the stuff and would put it into 1.25" to 1.5" consistently (group after group) with an Acog. Sometimes it would best 1" but I don't count that as the norm.
As for the poi shift, I binned that bipod long ago and shot it off the 20 round mag, I don't want anything touching or applying pressure to my barrel since it is not free floated.
 
For anyone who wants some facts on the Swiss so you can draw your own conclusions as to it's future look here
http://www.theshootingcentre.com/sans-overview

I really liked the rifle, especially it's build quality but it just wasn't for me. If I can't use the factory bipod because it causes a POI shift of 5 MOA then it's stupid to have it on the rifle. I don't like resting a rifle on the magazine as it transfers the recoil energy through the mag to the mag release mechanism which while the rifle side is metal and probably won't cause damage the mags are plastic and because of the rock in design could case damage to the mag after repeated firing with the weight of the rifle on it. I found it best to support it on the sand bag right in front of the magwell.
I'm sure it was capable of better accuracy with different ammo but I think the best I ever got from that rifle was about 3 MOA. I don't take a break to cool down between shots as I don't think a battle rifle should need it, I don't let them get hot but I'm not going to take one shot every 5 min with a semi auto 223 just to get the most accuracy out of it.
I didn't buy the Swiss expecting a sniper rifle but I did expect more after all the hype it got on the forums.

Boss351, Even my 12 inch PWS piston AR would shoot tighter groups than my Swiss and it isn't floated either.
A quality barrel will shoot all ammo well and certain ammo exceptionally well.

Just for reference my Swiss had about 500 rounds through it so it was definitely not shot out and I refuse to shoot or let anyone else shoot Norico ammo through any of my 223's
 
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cr5 said:
Your omitting one extremely important fact which I think is going to be the deal breaker.
Thanks to TSE's "control rifles" that turned out to be converted auto uppers it has been brought to light that there is now an unknown number of prohibited rifles floating around which are untraceable.
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We are still yet to see unarguable proof of this. Unless anyone else is aware and able to publicly share the proof it's currently the word or the firearms lab that is what there is to go on. Of course this lab has been known to be 100% transparent, unbiased, and release their findings in an impartial manner........ right??

Most I've seen is the side profile picture of the rifles in question thanks to some investigative reporting by those on here. For now the absence of proof is questionable.

Ardent said:
Tavor Pros:
-Mags: Uses AR mags, and all the variations of those, including 10 round pistol mags being legal for it.
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Which, just for point of note, can also be a con. The STANAG magazine is still the weak point of any design that uses them otherwise there would be one mag that everyone uses. Although every new attempt of 'fixing' the issue brings it closer to perfection. Don't get me wrong, I too love the variety of choice, 10 shot mags, and the ability to explore different calibers all out of one magazine. It's just worth mentioning that it's still both a pro, and con.
 
cr5 said:
I think the best I ever got from that rifle was about 3 MOA.
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At a 100 with optics?!? Something was not right there, either a problem with the optic mount or with the rifle itself. I would be disappointed also with such results. AE is not bad ammo and is fairly accurate in my experience. I have fired a few of these rifles and all have shot well. Regarding the bipod, yes it is stupid and should never have been put on there, mine is collecting dust in the garage.
 
J996 said:
At a 100 with optics?!? Something was not right there, either a problem with the optic mount or with the rifle itself. I would be disappointed also with such results. AE is not bad ammo and is fairly accurate in my experience. I have fired a few of these rifles and all have shot well. Regarding the bipod, yes it is stupid and should never have been put on there, mine is collecting dust in the garage.
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It was a classic green target. Built in rail and only the flip up sights for irons (which I never used)
Everything else I have and have had shoots the AE 55gr well. I really should have tried some other types of ammo. Then I would have known if it was the rifle or that it just didn't like that ammo.
My HK hates AE 62gr FMJ which I find strange as well, considering how well it shoots everything else.
I figured it was good enough for a battle rifle but I want 2moa or better out of anything I own, and better if I build handloads for it.
 
cr5 said:
It was a classic green target. Built in rail and only the flip up sights for irons (which I never used)
Everything else I have and have had shoots the AE 55gr well. I really should have tried some other types of ammo. Then I would have known if it was the rifle or that it just didn't like that ammo.
My HK hates AE 62gr FMJ which I find strange as well, considering how well it shoots everything else.
I figured it was good enough for a battle rifle but I want 2moa or better out of anything I own, and better if I build handloads for it.
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While not unbelievable, I too find your results strange. Using AE 55gr in my 1in10 twist Classic Green and no magnification (irons), I can print 2" groups at 100M pretty consistently from the bench. Sounds like there must have been something wrong with the rifle, it should have shot better than 3moa using the AE.....Total bummer you didn't run some other types of ammo through it.
 
Steve Janes said:
While not unbelievable, I too find your results strange. Using AE 55gr in my 1in10 twist Classic Green and no magnification (irons), I can print 2" groups at 100M pretty consistently from the bench. Sounds like there must have been something wrong with the rifle, it should have shot better than 3moa using the AE.....Total bummer you didn't run some other types of ammo through it.
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May have been a batch that the rifle didn't like either. I've seen this with my Swiss Arms and Winchester White box 55gr FMJ. Some batches shoot poorly, others are under 2 MOA.
 
Oh well, it's gone now and I'm happy with the HK with all it's mods to make it comfy.
Shoots well and I don't find it overly heavy, I slung it all day this fall when I was out hiking on a friends property looking for yotes East of Edmonton.
I still miss my AR-180B though, I'll be buying that one back one of these days.
 
My 1/7 twist Swiss Arms loves 62gr Barnes tsx bullets and 69 grain SMK , i have shot some MOA groups with some nice hand loads , the rifle seemed to prefer IMR 4895 more than H Varget.. Only thing i hate about the rifle is the bipod POI shift issue .. you ether have to zero with the bipod and always use it or zero without it and never use it . The best 5 shot group at 100 i have pulled off with AE 55gr was about 1.8 inches.
 
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cr5 said:
Oh well, it's gone now and I'm happy with the HK with all it's mods to make it comfy.
Shoots well and I don't find it overly heavy, I slung it all day this fall when I was out hiking on a friends property looking for yotes East of Edmonton.
I still miss my AR-180B though, I'll be buying that one back one of these days.
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Blasphemy...you mention the AR180b in the same sentence as HK or SAN...lol
 
cr5 said:
It was a classic green target. Built in rail and only the flip up sights for irons (which I never used)
Everything else I have and have had shoots the AE 55gr well. I really should have tried some other types of ammo. Then I would have known if it was the rifle or that it just didn't like that ammo.
My HK hates AE 62gr FMJ which I find strange as well, considering how well it shoots everything else.
I figured it was good enough for a battle rifle but I want 2moa or better out of anything I own, and better if I build handloads for it.
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What's the twist rate? If the standard 1/10 twist there is something wrong with the rifle. As mentioned earlier in this thread, all rifles are tested on SAN's indoor 300 meter range and must achieve a 10 cm grouping. That is using GP90 ammo. If you had a 1/7 twist barrel it might not be as accurate with a 55 grain load such as AE. Do you know what your twist is?
 
Ar180shooter said:
Hey, watch it!

The 180 is the unloved parent of the HK SL8/G36. It's not as refined as the others, but was a great design.
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That is true, the original AR18/180 is a pretty good rifle that was the design basis for a number of rifles. I own a few original examples and they are a great rifle (unfortunately prohib). The AR180B unfortunately has a polymer lower that can fail although mine has not suffered that issue.
 
onetwentyish said:
Also note that tavors can now be ordered as a left hand model.

This would ease your mind of the extra hassle and cost to convert.
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Bah my wife is a leftie and she shoots my right handed Tavor all the time. Never once got kissed by brass, that's because it ejects forward to one oclock. I've said this so many times but nobody seems to believe me so I give up. A lot of people here say differently, but they're just plain wrong, and have never fired a tavor leftie. they're the same ones that say it'll break if you drop it, or if it snows on it it'll freeze or whatever stupid other nonsense.
She does breathe in a lot of the gases from the ejection port though, lol, makes her cough.
 
I've shot mine left as well, and not touched by the brass. MAC on YouTube is a lefty and demonstrates shooting it and being perfectly happy with it in right hand configuration for left shooting. It would be nice as a lefty to have the charging handle on the right, and I'd still opt for the left hand configuration if stuck on southpaw. I started as a left hand shooter, switched to right, so I play with most rifles both ways.
 
mikethebike said:
Bah my wife is a leftie and she shoots my right handed Tavor all the time. Never once got kissed by brass, that's because it ejects forward to one oclock. I've said this so many times but nobody seems to believe me so I give up. A lot of people here say differently, but they're just plain wrong, and have never fired a tavor leftie. they're the same ones that say it'll break if you drop it, or if it snows on it it'll freeze or whatever stupid other nonsense.
She does breathe in a lot of the gases from the ejection port though, lol, makes her cough.
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I don't think the brass is the issue. In the videos I've seen the ejection port gives off a lot of gas like you said lol Like someone said earlier it can be done but not comfortably. And if it comes as left hand and you're a lefty why wouldn't you get the lefty version?
 
Well all versions of the Tavor can be the lefty version with a minor mod, as it of course has a blocked out ejection port for that purpose. I think what we're saying is no need to wait for one configured as lefty to purchase, simply buy the right hand version, shoot and enjoy it, and convert when practical.
 
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