Tell me about the 45/70.

[Johnn Peterson]

I thought that was Col. Charles askins.

In the early to mid 70's, I was fortunate enough to visit for a day with Elmer at his home in Salmon Idaho. While there I purchased two more of his books, signed, to add to what I already had. "Hell I Was There" and "Keith An Autobiography".

During that day long visit there were quite a number of his experiences that I got a first hand detailed account of and that, concerning his 45 ACP episode, was one. My main 'new' focus those days was handguns so many of the topics of discussion were along that line. Here's a photo I've posted in past.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

That's OK - sarcasm is just one of the weapons I use. I too wish I had a PG version. I'm tempted by the stainless laminate version with the rail and full length mag tube but somewhat put off by the tales of Marlington's apparent QC issues. I really hope they get things sorted out...


blake

Same here, so for now, I'll live with what I have.

 

[albertaal]

I had one of the 2nd generation Winchester 1886 rifles. The ones with no safey on them. I shot the 300 grain Hornadys out of it almost exclusively. My hunting load went out at 1900 fps and my fun load would go out at 1350 fps. I only used RL-7 with it, if I remember correctly.

It was a great rifle and with the Lyman 66A peep sight, it would group all day at 2.5 MOA all day long. My farthest shot on a deer was 175 yards. With the fun load, I shot at a lot of prairie dogs all through the summers down in Nebraska. I got pretty good with that rifle. I'd still have it, except in a fit of poorness back in grad school.

 

[brybenn]

Nope - it was Elmer Keith. I just went and looked it up...

Ok I was wrong. My bad. I thought I read that happening in col charles book unrepentant sinner. I must be mistaken

 

[Meph]

You must be superman if you believe a stoutly loaded 45/70 in something like a Marlin Guide Gun or Ruger #1 hits like a sponge bath.

Not really. Recoil is something you have to learn to absorb properly. For example, my boss bought an R93 in .300 RUM. He was trying to sight it in but after four or five shots, he puts it down and goes "It kicks so damn hard", revealing a bruised shoulder. My shooting buddy, who's been firing rather stout guns for over 30 years, proceeds to sight his rifle in, fire off the rest of his box for fun, and go to his .300 Weatherby and finish his load development that he was working on, another 50 rounds.

From the bench, you have to be even more careful about how you shoulder the rifle.

One of the most important things that I find makes a difference in how much you'll feel the recoil is the height of the gun on the bench compared to the height of the chair. For stout kicking rifles, I like the gun mounted so my back is straight and the rifle can be on the bench a bit higher up. I can tuck my right arm in and still have the elbow on the bench.

This does two things. Tucking your right elbow in (for me) puts more strong muscle in front of the bones. I've found this really cuts down on felt recoil - we all know how much a gun suddenly kicks harder when it's resting off a collar bone. Having a straight back puts less weight behind the gun, as if you were standing up. I'm not saying to "chick lean", don't get me wrong, you don't want to get pushed off balance and fall down. I'm saying to let the gun move you back as if you were shooting it standing. This imparts more energy in moving your body and less of it in compressing your shoulder.

You just have to practice moving things around. If one position hurts, move the stock a little on the shoulder. Raise or lower the rifle. Lean in or lean out a little. Just don't keep shooting in a position that's just feels like you're getting hammered. When you get to a position of body and rifle that feels better, remember it.

You may one day shoot stout recoiling rifles without much trouble.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

I think you're quite right in much of what you say Meph, but there are a couple more variables I find I'm 'dealing' with. Using the straight stocked Guide Gun pictured in my previous post, with heavier loads, recoil with that straight stock design 'can' be a little hard on the fingers. A quite noticeable difference between that and a Marlin I have shot with a pistol grip configuration.

My second problem was years ago I sustained a total tear of my right rotator. From a bench or standing, using the old traditional right elbow up stance, most calibers bother me somewhat. In line with what you mentioned, if I tightly tuck the right elbow down, and bunch up a bit of meat at the shoulder, no problem.

 

[Meph]

I think you're quite right in much of what you say Meph, but there are a couple more variables I find I'm 'dealing' with. Using the straight stocked Guide Gun pictured in my previous post, with heavier loads, recoil with that straight stock design 'can' be a little hard on the fingers. A quite noticeable difference between that and a Marlin I have shot with a pistol grip configuration.

My second problem was years ago I sustained a total tear of my right rotator. From a bench or standing, using the old traditional right elbow up stance, most calibers bother me somewhat. In line with what you mentioned, if I tightly tuck the right elbow down, and bunch up a bit of meat at the shoulder, no problem.

I shot my friend's 450 Marlin, it had a straight stock as well. I quickly learned to pull a bit harder with the firing hand than I would normally. Usually I snug the rifle up a bit more with the support hand while still pulling a bit with the firing hand to ensure the rifle is tight on the shoulder. With the lever action, I did that more with the firing hand, it helped quite a bit.

As far as the total rear rotator injury, I'm sorry about that, I didn't know. Indeed, you would have to be superman to shoot guns with a bit of bite on a damaged shoulder.

For my previous post, I was assuming that the shooter in question was more or less in full working order with no disability.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

I shot my friend's 450 Marlin, it had a straight stock as well. I quickly learned to pull a bit harder with the firing hand than I would normally. Usually I snug the rifle up a bit more with the support hand while still pulling a bit with the firing hand to ensure the rifle is tight on the shoulder. With the lever action, I did that more with the firing hand, it helped quite a bit.

As far as the total tear rotator injury, I'm sorry about that, I didn't know. Indeed, you would have to be superman to shoot guns with a bit of bite on a damaged shoulder.

For my previous post, I was assuming that the shooter in question was more or less in full working order with no disability.

With that injury, considering the range of movement and strength I still had at the time, it was suggested not to repair for the moment. If I had still been at work on the tools and not behind a desk, I would've had to have corrective surgery. Over quite a period of time, there was some improvement but it was never to a pre-injury level.

Again with shooting, I once shot my son in laws 375 H&H with a more traditional right elbow up stance and that was quite painful, for a number of days. Shooting some of the more potent rifle cartridges, as long as I remember to keep that right elbow tucked down, no real problem. Even with my model 70 in 458WM, I can 'loosen' cobwebs by shooting a couple of handfuls of full house 500gr loads without problem, as long as I keep that right elbow down.

 

[Meph]

With that injury, considering the range of movement and strength I still had at the time, it was suggested not to repair for the moment. If I had still been at work on the tools and not behind a desk, I would've had to have corrective surgery. Over quite a period of time, there was some improvement but it was never to a pre-injury level.

Again with shooting, I once shot my son in laws 375 H&H with a more traditional right elbow up stance and that was quite painful, for a number of days. Shooting some of the more potent rifle cartridges, as long as I remember to keep that right elbow tucked down, no real problem. Even with my model 70 in 458WM, I can 'loosen' cobwebs by shooting a couple of handfuls of full house 500gr loads without problem, as long as I keep that right elbow down.

I have to say your big bore rifle lineup makes me drool. I'm considering a CZ 550 in .416 Rigby in a little while. Any suggestions on alternatives? I am fond of the .458 bore but I like the .416 Rigby cartridge design and mentality. Large case with relatively low working pressure, rimless and beltless with a healthy case body taper... It's just so right.

I wouldn't mind a caliber with a bit more oomph, but the .416 Rigby still has a front row seat.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

I have to say your big bore rifle lineup makes me drool. I'm considering a CZ 550 in .416 Rigby in a little while. Any suggestions on alternatives? I am fond of the .458 bore but I like the .416 Rigby cartridge design and mentality. Large case with relatively low working pressure, rimless and beltless with a healthy case body taper... It's just so right.

I wouldn't mind a caliber with a bit more oomph, but the .416 Rigby still has a front row seat.

I've never had or handled one but from all reports, the CZ 550 is supposed to be a very good rifle. When I got the model 70 pictured earlier, at that time I already had a CZ 602. The 602 appeared to be well made and shot well but didn't seem to be as nicely finished off as the model 70,so I kept the pretty one. If you had an inclination to go to a 458 Lott, the 602 action is easily lengthy enough to handle that cartridge conversion.

Nothing shabby about a classic like the 416 Rigby and there's also a few others in that calibre line up that look 'interesting'. I don't know that I'd ever make use of something like that but I wouldn't mind playing with one. In reality, there's enough in my cabnet to keep me occupied as is.

There doesn't seem to be all that much difference between the 416 Rigby and the 416 Rem. Mag. so unless you were definately favouring a 'classic', the Rem. might be a good option. Graylake on site has a Rem. in a model 70 that he took to Africa a few years ago and from some of his last posts, it sounds like he was considering parting with it. If he still is, that may be an option.

 

[Meph]

I've never had or handled one but from all reports, the CZ 550 is supposed to be a very good rifle. When I got the model 70 pictured earlier, at that time I already had a CZ 602. The 602 appeared to be well made and shot well but didn't seem to be as nicely finished off as the model 70,so I kept the pretty one. If you had an inclination to go to a 458 Lott, the 602 action is easily lengthy enough to handle that cartridge conversion.

Nothing shabby about a classic like the 416 Rigby and there's also a few others in that calibre line up that look 'interesting'. I don't know that I'd ever make use of something like that but I wouldn't mind playing with one. In reality, there's enough in my cabnet to keep me occupied as is.

There doesn't seem to be all that much difference between the 416 Rigby and the 416 Rem. Mag. so unless you were definately favouring a 'classic', the Rem. might be a good option. Graylake on site has a Rem. in a model 70 that he took to Africa a few years ago and from some of his last posts, it sounds like he was considering parting with it. If he still is, that may be an option.

I can see the Winchester Model 70 in .458 Win Mag listed for 1420$. Indeed, the finish could be better on the Winchester versus the CZ, as I've handled the new Winchesters and they have been quite flawless. The CZ does retail for a bit less and I have not heard of complaints yet. Another plus for the CZs, I hear it's relatively simple to order a .450 Rigby from them straight out of the factory.

The main difference I was attracted to in the .416 Rigby and its ilk was the rimless, lightly case body tapered design. In my experience, those types of cases are easier to feed with perfect reliability and are unlikely to get as sticky in very hot conditions, especially when burning over 90 grains of powder. If I am to one day shoot at a very irritable meat mountain, I'd like to be sure that I won't have trouble getting a second or even third shot off.

I'm still weighing my options right now, this is more of a long term thing.

 

[ckid]

I have used a Ruger #3 with a fixxed 2.5 x scope for 15 years hunting in the BC interior and never felt as if I had a lack of reach with it... Mind you 2250 fps with a 350 grain Speer flattens things out a little bit... I have had no problem taking mulies out just past the 200 yd mark... Most of my shots have been under 150 yds though... Recoil with that load is on the heavy side of my tolerance when shooting off the bench though... Shooting offhand it is quite tolerable... Over the years this rifle and load have taken the majority of my game, moose, black bear and mulies...

I also have a Uberti Hiwall, and I have yet to take game with it... It is pretty much a range toy shot with either BP or BP equivalent smokeless loads with 405 gr cast boolits... I hope to get out with it this year for spring bear, but I will be limiting my shots to 100yds with it...

Calum if you do end up in Quesnel shoot me a PM and I can get you out to the local rod and gun club... Quesnel has a great range set up: 500 yd rifle, multiple outdoor handgun bays (7 if my count is correct), black powder trail, trap, sporting clays and a 16 position 20yd indoor range....

Steve