Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

shawn said:
That's like saying people get hit by lightning all the time that aren't holding a golf club in the air during a thunder storm. So it makes no difference if I walk around holding a golf club up in the air when there are storms.

Shawn
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That's a great analogy...there are some risks associated with shooting and guns no matter what you do because accidents happen and people are not perfect. That doesn't mean you can't go a long way towards mitigating those risks.

Not using substandard equipment is a good start.
 
Greenhorse six said:
That makes no sense what you said.

Hey, never said the holster was with out fault, the relaese is in a bad place, I'am with you that it has issues, but like was said in the video some of it is human error too.
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It makes about as much sense as what you said. And everyone else seemed to get what I said.

And I also never said that there was not human factor involved in this. What I said was there is still issues with this holster and why would you willing use something that increases risk.

Shawn
 
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A lot of go-fast guys that use guns for a living and teach others how to use guns are strongly against the serpa holsters, and as stated above, do not allow the holsters in their classes.

Going to the range and feeling cool cause you get to wear your gun in a holster doesn't make you a serious user or validate your opinion on whether it's a good piece of kit or not. And using it for competitions doesn't mean #### either, if you suck at shooting and you're dog slow with drawing and pistol manipulations. I find it funny how some people that don't know what they're talking about will use anything to justify their emotional connection to a piece of ####ty plastic.

The holsters are cheap. Your gun won't fall out if you're upside down. That's it. Not much else about them is any good.
 
Never said ,you, said anything about the human part.

shawn said:
It makes about as much sense as what you said. And everyone else seemed to get what I said.

And I also never said that there was not human factor involved in this. What I said was there is still issues with this holster and why would you willing use something that increases risk.

Shawn
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I have one and I dig it, although I don't compete or anything. I just like it so when I go change targets I'm not leaving my pistol unattended, and the retention is nice when I'm bent over picking up brass. I also wear it forward of where someone competing would be wearing it, and I have small hands so my finger fits the release button quite nicely. The set of circumstances kind of make it the perfect holster for me, haha. I do like the look of that drop leg one in MilArms video though... I think I could dig that for my next one.
 
TheGamer### said:
Pressure?

Im not sure where you practice... but the most pressure I get is a beep.

As for threading the needle... probably. My hands dont shake when im under stress... (depending on level of course)

All im saying is that under his "stress" condition, the ND is just negligence, not caused by something mechanically failing.

If you are using it by curling your finger to depress the release. You are teaching yourself to fail.

It'd be as good as looking down a loaded fire-arm to see if there is a round chambered, with the finger on the trigger.

But like you said. There are other holsters out there. I guess some just shouldnt be trusted to basic functions.

Luke
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I don't wish to pick on you specifically, just your first sentence. I also don't wish to beat a dead horse here but some things need to be said.

Validating such holster because you use it at the range against paper targets either under the clock or not, does not hold any weight. Misanthropist clearly laid out the realities of stress induced actions and their potential consequences. On the flip side, for those who run the Serpa as a hobby holster at the range, the question needs to be asked and answered. Why do you need a level 2 retention holster if you're only playing at the range or even competing? Level 1 or simply friction based holsters(especially Kydex) provide more than enough retention and are faster to draw from.

Aside from the obvious issue above and the "pros" who have denounced this holster there are other issues at hand. The build quality is non existent, they're poorly built cheap plastic holsters. The lock mechanism has been connected to several cases where the gun was not released from the holster. In some cases the holster was cut from the gun due to debris locking the mechanism or other mechanical failure.

Trigger fingers are for one purpose and one purpose only, to pull/depress the trigger. Keep it that way..

TDC
 
Interesting points here

I used a serpa for 6 years now without a problem but always wondered about this issue.

very interesting stuff here ...........never knew it was so sh!tty

then i don't know everything:p

..I just have to add ...........no matter how you armchair quarter back it you got to hand it do the guy ......it never whined ..he walked away ..........and he's exposing himself to ridicule for the betterment of others
 
Just a thought but the last 3 incidents like this I have seen have been with 1911's and high end ones at that. I would assume they have some well tuned light triggers as well.

I just cant see this happening with a Glock or a double action pistol. Not saying it doesnt happen but it takes quite a bit more pressure to set off a Glock or most double action triggers as compared to the 3 pounds that some of these 1911's have on em.

Just an observation.

I love my 1911 and they are one of my favourite style of pistol but as a carry gun cocked and locked just doesnt seem safe to me at all.

Don't worry I have my flame suit on! ;)
 
mlehtovaara said:
I just cant see this happening with a Glock or a double action pistol.
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Chris Cerino a respected LE trainer recently earned a Serpa scar with an S&W M&P 9.

Here are his comments halfway through a thread on another board:

"We were running some timed drills and I was working with a newly acquired Blackhawk Serpa holster. I had some reservations about any holster where you use your trigger finger to release the gun. I had been struggling with the holster as I have had Safariland holsters"

"Add me to the list of losers who can't properly function a serpa"
" I do have reservations about using your trigger finger for anything but pulling a trigger. I would venture to say that there are plenty more incidents not reported. I will not condemn the holster"
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1128622_index.html/page=5

As they say, YMMV :yingyang:
 
mlehtovaara said:
Just a thought but the last 3 incidents like this I have seen have been with 1911's and high end ones at that. I would assume they have some well tuned light triggers as well.

I just cant see this happening with a Glock or a double action pistol. Not saying it doesnt happen but it takes quite a bit more pressure to set off a Glock or most double action triggers as compared to the 3 pounds that some of these 1911's have on em.

Just an observation.

I love my 1911 and they are one of my favourite style of pistol but as a carry gun cocked and locked just doesnt seem safe to me at all.

Don't worry I have my flame suit on! ;)
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I would skip the flame suit and go with the eye-roll suit. I have a hard time imagining anybody flaming this comment with any great effect because it's so hard to type while rolling your eyes and shaking your head.
 
mlehtovaara said:
Just a thought but the last 3 incidents like this I have seen have been with 1911's and high end ones at that. I would assume they have some well tuned light triggers as well.

I just cant see this happening with a Glock or a double action pistol. Not saying it doesnt happen but it takes quite a bit more pressure to set off a Glock or most double action triggers as compared to the 3 pounds that some of these 1911's have on em.

Just an observation.

I love my 1911 and they are one of my favourite style of pistol but as a carry gun cocked and locked just doesnt seem safe to me at all.

Don't worry I have my flame suit on! ;)
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Other than law enforcement, it seems that just about everyone lightens the triggers on Glocks. And even then, I hear a lot of horror stories about people shooting their legs with them.

I still laugh when I see that one video... "I'm the only on in this room professional enough... POP!" :p
 
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I just wanted to add that most 'accidents' seem to be the "i was using it for the first time and..."

That's where I say any piece of kit, without the know how/practice of use, can be dangerous. And face it boys and girls, we play with something that can potentially injure/kill us/somebody on the range.

Yes you can remove the retention, and then it's just like any other holster that just uses the pressure against your gun to hold it in place.

Im not saying they are the BEST out there, but I do like mine. I just dont see me pulling the trigger when whenever I pull the gun out my finger is lying on the side of the frame. I have pretty big hands and long fingers, so on most pistols it takes some manipulation to get my fingers inside the trigger guards.

The first thing I did notice was just that what was shown in this video. You use the tip of your finger it CAN go in the trigger guard. Simple solution. Don't.

Also I know im not being picked on, nor really would I take offence if I was.

Trigger fingers are for one purpose and one purpose only, to pull/depress the trigger. Keep it that way..
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Hmm I guess using my trigger finger and thumb on the USP to release mags, or to manipulate safeties on some guns is abherently wrong then?

To each their own.

PS. Some people on the range I wouldnt trust with a loaded gun no matter what holster they have.

Luke
 
TheGamer### said:
I just wanted to add that most 'accidents' seem to be the "i was using it for the first time and..."

That's where I say any piece of kit, without the know how/practice of use, can be dangerous. And face it boys and girls, we play with something that can potentially injure/kill us/somebody on the range.

Yes you can remove the retention, and then it's just like any other holster that just uses the pressure against your gun to hold it in place.

Im not saying they are the BEST out there, but I do like mine. I just dont see me pulling the trigger when whenever I pull the gun out my finger is lying on the side of the frame. I have pretty big hands and long fingers, so on most pistols it takes some manipulation to get my fingers inside the trigger guards.

The first thing I did notice was just that what was shown in this video. You use the tip of your finger it CAN go in the trigger guard. Simple solution. Don't.

Also I know im not being picked on, nor really would I take offence if I was.



Hmm I guess using my trigger finger and thumb on the USP to release mags, or to manipulate safeties on some guns is abherently wrong then?

To each their own.

PS. Some people on the range I wouldnt trust with a loaded gun no matter what holster they have.

Luke
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Some very valid points in your post. Yes, firearms can be and are primarily designed to be lethal force instruments. That being the case, removing or reducing actions that could lead to such incidents is paramount. In the case of USP pistols and others where the magazine release is best activated with the trigger finger there is obviously an exception. However, the motion of the finger to operate said mag release is in no way similar to the action used to pull the trigger or enter the trigger guard. Pressing down(in relation to the slide) will not result in a negligent discharge. Furthermore, when loading/reloading the pistol the muzzle is directed away from the user so a self induced gunshot wound is near impossible.

The Serpa design is an answer to a question no one asked. Thumb breaks have been in use for decades with no issues. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Evolution and the such is great, but the Serpa design is not an improvement on anything currently offered. Lastly, I am still waiting for the answer to my question. If you only compete or plink why do you need a level two retention holster??

TDC
 
I also carry on duty. And what we get for carry is... unconvetionally crappy (yes more so then the SERPA) but I have no choice there.

For the 20$ I paid for the holster/thigh rig... I can't complain. (new) Sure I can get something else, and have owned a lot of different ones. They sure arent the best, but they work for what I need them to do at the civy range.

I dont see them more or less dangerous then any other piece of equipment I've owned (and was not issued).

Also. There is always a need to re-invent the wheel. I mean how else would we have hovering trains and such :p

Luke
 
Guys like Wicked Police can comment with authority as to the holster for use with LEOs and the military but for playing the games like IDPA and IPSC I just don't see the holster as bringing anything more to the table than a simple kydex pouch/pancake style holster does. In fact the mere act of having to use your finger to unlock the holster while under stress just complicates a rather simple movement - what is it guys want to talk about fine motor skills. Just ask the guy who gives himself a wedgy at the next match you attend how his fine motor skills are doing.:D

Removing the tab release for the poster who asked would be legal for IDPA if it is removed permanently. - see page 33 of the rule book and amended by the recent addendum. I strongly recommend you do this before your next match.

To the Glock shooter just watch your shirt when holstering a loaded Glock. If your shirt gets caught in the trigger guard and you aren't watching, your Glock/M&P and XD can go bang at the worst possible moment.

Take Care

Bob
 
I'm guessing you work armored car/security?


For practicing drills and general range use, as well as IDPA/IPSC, I use a regular Blade-tech. Same thing for non-work courses I've taken. I'm looking into a couple other options though....
Work stuff is a different story.

The only reason I can see someone getting the serpa over a Blade-tech for playing with at the range is because they're cheap. And they've seen army or cop dudes using it and they think its cool.
 
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