Tex Grebner : SERPA : Bullets to the leg

[Canuck44]

I'm guessing you work armored car/security?


For practicing drills and general range use, as well as IDPA/IPSC, I use a regular Blade-tech. Same thing for non-work courses I've taken. I'm looking into a couple other options though....
Work stuff is a different story.

The only reason I can see someone getting the serpa over a Blade-tech for playing with at the range is because they're cheap. And they've seen army or cop dudes using it and they think its cool.

Cool to have 30+ oz of dead weight bouncing off your leg? Man it must be cool. Probably about as cool as wearing body armour over your shirt when it is 40C outside and you got some lady asking you why you aren't out chasing real criminals instead of giving her a ticket for only going 30K over the speed limit. I can only imagine.

Take Care and good luck in the Ontarios.

Bob

 

[oneskilledshooter]

With all the discussion about what the guy's trigger finger was doing, think about what his thumb was doing.

I bet you guys a beer that Tex is in the habit of taking the safety off while he draws. That in itself is a really bad habit for any 1911 user.

 

[Canuck44]

With all the discussion about what the guy's trigger finger was doing, think about what his thumb was doing.

I bet you guys a beer that Tex is in the habit of taking the safety off while he draws. That in itself is a really bad habit for any 1911 user.

The Serpa lends itself to that very thing when drawing a 1911. This is one of the complaints with the holster.

Take Care

Bob

 

[relliott]

With all the discussion about what the guy's trigger finger was doing, think about what his thumb was doing.

I bet you guys a beer that Tex is in the habit of taking the safety off while he draws. That in itself is a really bad habit for any 1911 user.

Agreed, and he may not even be aware that he does it. Forward raking holsters like the one he's using in the vid force the arm and wrist into a very awkward, unnatural position. This position loads the thumb joint up with tension, which will be difficult to conciously override in a high-stress situation. The natural thing to for the thumb to do in this type of draw stroke is to try and close towards the fingers. Not a good thing with a 1911.

I realize that retention holsters exist for officer safety reasons, but I do wonder if any data exists that show a ratio of saves to accidental shootings. In high stress situations humans tend to default to gross motor skills, and the higher the stress the grosser the skill. Even just missing the button for that split-second in the draw and having to reactivate could mean the difference of life or death. Seems to me a simpler design might be generally safer across the broadest spectrum of officers. Properly fitted, a Kydex holster with clam shell tensioning and a press-fit detent around the trigger guard prevents a gun from being snatched out of a holster in anything but a straight line lift. So it would in theory be difficult for someone to snatch a gun out of an officers rig before the officer could respond.

I'm no expert on duty rigs but I would be very interested to see if such comparative data has ever been compiled.

Edit to note: I don't like seeing anyone on the firing line with really loose fitting shirts blousing out over their holster. Doesn't matter what holster design; if you grab a handful of shirt when you draw that gun is very possibly going to launch out of your hand as you try to clear the holster. Conversely, on reinsertion if there is clothing trapped in between the holster and the gun it could fire in the holster.

 

[wicked_police]

Properly fitted, a Kydex holster with clam shell tensioning and a press-fit detent around the trigger guard prevents a gun from being snatched out of a holster in anything but a straight line lift. So it would in theory be difficult for someone to snatch a gun out of an officers rig before the officer could respond.

That's wrong.

Edit to note: I don't like seeing anyone on the firing line with really loose fitting shirts blousing out over their holster. Doesn't matter what holster design; if you grab a handful of shirt when you draw that gun is very possibly going to launch out of your hand as you try to clear the holster. Conversely, on reinsertion if there is clothing trapped in between the holster and the gun it could fire in the holster.

There's nothing wrong with a loose fitting shirt when the user knows how to properly clear the concealment garment to draw the pistol. And there's also nothing wrong with the same when holstering. There's never any reason to holster as fast as you can. It's not a race. You should take your time, again clearing your concealment garment out of the way and properly holster the gun.

Does that always happen? Of course not.

 

[relliott]

That's wrong.

Fair enough. Good to know. As I say; I'm not an expert on retention.

There's nothing wrong with a loose fitting shirt when the user knows how to properly clear the concealment garment to draw the pistol. And there's also nothing wrong with the same when holstering. There's never any reason to holster as fast as you can. It's not a race. You should take your time, again clearing your concealment garment out of the way and properly holster the gun.

Does that always happen? Of course not.

I don't think I worded my comment correctly. Should have been clearer. I'm not really talking about someone who is drawing from concealment. I'm referring to the old, partially tucked in sweater or shirt that blouses out over the holster and just gets in the way. I've seen a lot of fumbling with that stuff on the range (and not exclusively from civilians) and it always makes me a little nervous. Shirt gets caught between the thumb/palm and grip of the gun and as the gun is lifted the shirt starts to pry it free. As you note above, "a user who knows" can overcome this with training but then such a person would probably also make sure they have appropriate concealment garments. I do agree that there's no rush in re-holstering and also agree that someone who is properly trained can draw from concealment very quickly and safely.

 

[TDC]

With all the discussion about what the guy's trigger finger was doing, think about what his thumb was doing.

I bet you guys a beer that Tex is in the habit of taking the safety off while he draws. That in itself is a really bad habit for any 1911 user.

Although this is likely the case, I don't see it as that big of an issue. If you follow the fundamental four rules of firearms handling, nowhere does it say anything about mechanical safeties and for good reason. Mechanical safeties fail and should not be relied upon. Had Tex and a thousand other recipients of their own handy work kept their fingers OFF THE TRIGGER they wouldn't have shot themselves or anyone else. Disengaging the safety as it clears the holster is no different than drawing a Glock or DA/SA pistol without a positive safety.

TDC

 

[oneskilledshooter]

Although this is likely the case, I don't see it as that big of an issue. If you follow the fundamental four rules of firearms handling, nowhere does it say anything about mechanical safeties and for good reason. Mechanical safeties fail and should not be relied upon. Had Tex and a thousand other recipients of their own handy work kept their fingers OFF THE TRIGGER they wouldn't have shot themselves or anyone else. Disengaging the safety as it clears the holster is no different than drawing a Glock or DA/SA pistol without a positive safety.

TDC

Yes, I agree completely. It was the trigger finger that did him in for sure, but if he had disengaged the safety when the pistol was in a safe direction the accident would not have happened. Personally I never disengage the safety (speaking specifically about 1911's here) until the pistol is pointed in a safe direction. This is part of the drill each and every time I draw and it does not slow anything down - safety is disengaged as the sights come up.

I understand that the design of the holster played a role, but he was not under any kind of stress. He was practicing at the range. The whole thing is very unfortunate, but we can all learn from his mistake.

Using the safety may not be one of the 4 rules, but it certainly is part of holster training to use a 1911. At least it is in the black badge course. There is nothing wrong with an added level of safety that does nothing to slow you down IMHO.

 

[TheGamerXxX]

Safety/finger position/holsters/fire-arm... all of it could be accounted for said discharge.

Yes the Serpa has a problem, but I just dont get how right away people are blaming a piece of equipment.

There was a number of mistakes made both by the user (such as never having fired out of said holster before) and the holster he was using isn't "for some people"

Im just glad that's the least he did.

Remember, after any event, it's easy to say "he should've/he could've" he didnt.

TDC said it best. ACTS and SAFE are all you need to 'minimize' said occurances.

Luke

 

[TDC]

Yes, I agree completely. It was the trigger finger that did him in for sure, but if he had disengaged the safety when the pistol was in a safe direction the accident would not have happened. Personally I never disengage the safety (speaking specifically about 1911's here) until the pistol is pointed in a safe direction. This is part of the drill each and every time I draw and it does not slow anything down - safety is disengaged as the sights come up.

I understand that the design of the holster played a role, but he was not under any kind of stress. He was practicing at the range. The whole thing is very unfortunate, but we can all learn from his mistake.

Using the safety may not be one of the 4 rules, but it certainly is part of holster training to use a 1911. At least it is in the black badge course. There is nothing wrong with an added level of safety that does nothing to slow you down IMHO.

Again, follow the fundamental four and it doesn't matter if the firearm has a mechanical safety. The pistol was pointed at something he didn't intend to shoot(atleast I don't think he intended to shoot himself) and he placed his finger on the trigger. Rather than worrying about activating or deactivating a safety, why not keep your f*cking finger off the trigger and follow the fundamental four? It works for all firearms all the time.

Safety/finger position/holsters/fire-arm... all of it could be accounted for said discharge.

Yes the Serpa has a problem, but I just dont get how right away people are blaming a piece of equipment.

There was a number of mistakes made both by the user (such as never having fired out of said holster before) and the holster he was using isn't "for some people"

Im just glad that's the least he did.

Remember, after any event, it's easy to say "he should've/he could've" he didnt.

TDC said it best. ACTS and SAFE are all you need to 'minimize' said occurances.

Luke

Several issues. I agree that incident was compounded by several factors, but removing the sh*tty equipment is the easiest and most effective method of reducing the potential for negligent discharges.

As for my comments. I disagree with ACTS and PROVE. I strongly agree and adhere to the fundamental four as they are the only rules you need. PROVE is nothing but an overly complex acronym for unloading a firearm. It falls into the same category as SPORTS. Overly complex and useless. Following the fundamental four while performing any administrative task will ensure no one/thing gets shot unintentionally.

TDC

 

[mebiuspower]

Retention is important but it's a bad retention design.

Saw an experienced shooter dropped his unloaded gun from a Bladetech DOH holster on the match Sunday... yikes...