The 223 as a viable big game round.

bearkilr said:
You
Do I really have to bring up Bell and the little old lady and the 22lr grizzly story?

:d
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Those tales usually make their way into these threads... ;)... adopting a philosophy of "margins" is not a bad idea for most of life... I am sure the game would appreciate it.
 
hoytcanon said:
Lol... who is going to "publicize" it??? The guy who shot and wounded and LOST half a dozen deer, or the guy who managed to kill one and then posed it with his "Storm Trooper" rifle, took pictures of the rib cage and a plate of tenderloins?
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Now you are grasping at straws,making things up. Most animals that are shot, wounded and lost by hunters have been hit poorly by hunters using larger cartridges than the .223. There simply is no epidemic of hunters using varmint bullets on deer and wounding them.
 
Gatehouse said:
Now you are grasping at straws,making things up. Most animals that are shot, wounded and lost by hunters have been hit poorly by hunters using larger cartridges than the .223. There simply is no epidemic of hunters using varmint bullets on deer and wounding them.
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I am not making things up... it stands to reason (for reasonable people) that reducing energy and momentum and utilizing a cartridge largely (not entirely) geared toward small game and varmints (check the factory .223 bullet offerings on any store shelf), will result in more wounding loss and certainly not less. It is also likely that we will hear the stories to a vastly larger degree from those that were successful, such as yourself, than we will from those that were unsuccessful. Use a little common sense as you promote these sub-calibers for deer sized game... you and your camp should do a better job of highlighting the qualifiers to their usage.
 
hoytcanon said:
I am not making things up... it stands to reason (for reasonable people) that reducing energy and momentum and utilizing a cartridge largely (not entirely) geared toward small game and varmints (check the factory .223 bullet offerings on any store shelf), will result in more wounding loss and certainly not less. It is also likely that we will hear the stories to a vastly larger degree from those that were successful, such as yourself, than we will from those that were unsuccessful. Use a little common sense as you promote these sub-calibers for deer sized game... you and your camp should do a better job of highlighting the qualifiers to their usage.
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More nonsense. So very few hunters will choose varmint ammo that the problem is virtually non existent. Most wounded and lost animals will come from poorly placed "traditional" cartridges.

And we hear about these wounded and lost animals all the time- people discuss this on forums regularly during hunting season. The reason we don't see any "I shot and lost a deer with a .223 and a varmint grenade bullet" threads is because it's a problem that doesn't exist.
 
A lot of local guys here hunt with .22 centerfires, mostly .22-250s and .220 Swifts probably because those were the high velocity .22s, that where here first. At least a few of these guys prefer to handload their .22-250s down to .223 velocities so the 55 gr PSPs penetrate better. When I first moved here I was quite vocal in my opposition to the use of these little rifles on big animals. To put it mildly, I was ignored, and the locals just kept filling their freezers with caribou, moose, bears, and seals that were taken with their .22s, to say nothing of bears and wolves. If we look back a century or so, the .22 Hi-Power developed quite a following as a big game cartridge, so taking large game with small bore rifles isn't anything new. Today we have better bullets, but the guys here aren't about to spend their hard earned money on TSXs, Partitions, or even 70 gr Speers when they have load combinations that have worked well for them over the last 50 years. That said, subsistence hunting and sport hunting should not be confused; they are two different things.

When I choose a big game cartridge, I want it to be effective with any shot angle, on any size of game I might encounter, out to the maximum range at which I can hit with that rifle. A .223 doesn't meet that standard, in fact I doubt if I'd hunt big game with anything smaller than my 6.5X55 loaded with 140s. The question then is should that standard be the basis of legislation? According to me, not only would you be unable to hunt big game with a .22 centerfire, neither would you be able to hunt big game with 6mms or .257s. When we're talking about regulations, personal opinion, even when based on experience, should never be the basis of legislation, but it should guide us towards good decision making. If minimum marksmanship standards are not imposed in order to purchase a hunting license, then neither should minimum cartridge standards be imposed for big game hunting.
 
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LMAO at the emotional spewing... super good humour... love these threads...

Yes the 223 will do the job on deer but its anemic so anemic that there is no way I'd pack one for deer and would never set my 11 year old son up to hunt with one on anything bigger than a coyote.

This fall when we are out deer/bear hunting he will be shooting his Savage Axis bolt gun in 243 or one of my light fast handling T/C Contender carbines in 6.8SPC with a 19" barrel or with 21" barrels in 7-30 Waters, 35 Rem and 375 Win.

Speed and/or bullet diameter is what kills if you don't have the speed which the 223 does not have move up in caliber.

We live in BC so my son's not walking around with just a 224 cal rifle when the bears are out.

I've shot 15 - 20 Sitka blacktail deer with a 22-250 all were DRT but shot placement was crucial always aimed for high neck just below the head 1/4" hole in 2" hole out and only the hide holding the head to the body I would not want to meet up with a big mule deer buck while packing it around though so I didn't.
 
Boomer said:
... subsistence hunting and sport hunting should not be confused; they are two different things.
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Boomer said:
Today we have better bullets, but the guys here aren't about to spend their hard earned money on TSXs, Partitions...
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These are points to consider in the discussion...

People often point to subsistence hunters tactics to advocate for sub-caliber use on larger game.

The guys around here won't be shooting 60 gr. Partitions or 55 gr. TSX or 70 gr. Accubonds either... they will grab the 40 round Winchester White box loads off CT's shelves and call it a day...

At no time did I say it can't be done, just that I don't believe it should be done, except in extreme and unusual circumstances. I am certain that Boomer, Gatehouse, Tod Bartell, Chuck and other experienced hunters can get the job done consistently and ethically and effectively with a .223... that is not the segment that I would be concerned about... those passionate, dedicated and experienced outdoorsmen have the knowledge and ability to be effective regardless of the equipment... but they are in the upper 10 percentile... I am more concerned about the minimalist philosophy being applied by the other 90%... and with that (negative ;)) diatribe, I am done with this thread... carry on...
 
I wounded and tracked a whitetail deer for several km and ended up losing it. Guess what cartridge I was using? Not 223, not 243, not even 308. The overkill (for deer) 300 Win Mag, most highly recommended for beginning hunters, right? At least, that's what my relatives told me to buy when I was 19 so I wouldn't have to buy more than one rifle to hunt all of BC's game. With 180gr Accubond factory ammo so I couldn't even blame the bullet. The only thing at fault was myself and my shot placement and lack of practice. That's the only animal I've shot and lost and it still bothers me to this day. Marksmanship is 10x more important than case capacity.
 
IMO, the midsize 22's (223 and the "new" 224 Valkyrie) are interesting for deer hunting. As much as I like the 22-250 for coyotes (and it drops deer like they were hit by lightning), really if a guy is going to have a fast twist and shoot heavy (ie 70-90 grain bullets) in the 22-250, Swift, various wildcats; one might as well get a 243.

It is interesting to see the evolution of caliber restrictions in BC.

In 1911 it was simply "automatic guns prohibited".

In 1945 it was "rimfires of 22 caliber prohibited", which means the 25 and 32 rimfires which were still manufactured (they're in the 1960 catalog I have) were legal - think 65 and 80 grain bullets at 945 or 1150 fps depending or short or long case.

Now it is simply rimfires are prohibited.
 
threecentsolution said:
If memory serves 223 made it's big advances in being designed for shooting humans AND not killing them, 2 more to pack them away. I'm sure they will kill a deer, hell a 22 will kill a deer and many other things, possibly not the best for the purpose.
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That is often mentioned and I would like to know where that myth originated... What I understand instead is that the .223 / 5.56 was chosen because it is the ideal compromise between terminal effectiveness (ability to kill), controllable in full auto fire and ammo weight, considering that most combat actually happens at ranges of about 300 m or less. Obviously, if the .223 / 5.56 was inadequate and good only to wound, I am sure that NATO would have moved on to another caliber, not kept it in service for 50 odd years...
 
Re Nato top brass are considered out of touch by the guy that is actually given a 5.56 to fight with why there are rounds like 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendal, 300 Blackout etc being promoted to replace the 5.56 by the guys on the ground they want more stopping power.
 
I've taken deer with cartridges ranging from 22 Hornet to 9.3x57, the end result is always the same.

Deer aren't very big. IMO elk/grizzly guns start at 6.5mm or the faster 25's.
 
MiG25 said:
I've taken deer with cartridges ranging from 22 Hornet to 9.3x57, the end result is always the same.

Deer aren't very big. IMO elk/grizzly guns start at 6.5mm or the faster 25's.
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indeed, the 140 grain 6.5mm bullets are wunderkind!

I don't have any hesitation to drop a small deer with a .223...small as in the lil beasties on Haida Gwaii. I would be fearful of the bullet ricochet off a Moose rib or something though. :s
 
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