- Location
- In the shadows of the Rockies
Impressive! Excellent results on Moose at close range with the 500gr RN at lower .458 WM speeds (~1900 fps MV). I could only imagine what an extra 500 fps would do.
The 450 Ruger Improved Lives.............
- Thread starter c-fbmi
- Start date
Impressive! Excellent results on Moose at close range with the 500gr RN at lower .458 WM speeds (~1900 fps MV). I could only imagine what an extra 500 fps would do.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
The Mad Scientist is at it again!
C'mon BUM, I'm not even a little bit mad, hell I'm in a really good mood lately. Got my shop all cleaned up and my sheet metal brakes and shear uncrated and setup, in fact just a couple more small things to do and my welding/sheet metal bay will be all setup. Bought another huge tool box so I could organize all my tools and moved my old not quite so huge one into my gunshop so I have a place for all my lathe and machine tools, spare chucks, tailstocks, steady rests etc. Things are looking good............so no, I'm not the least bit mad lately........
What a cool project! I am not a rabid reloading experimenter...I've never created a wildcat, at least not intentionally ...don't know how to operate a lathe...and I barely remained awake while reading about your .2-something-or-other Penguin or whatever the heck it was called...
...but this cartridge sounds like a gem!
I'm not even put off by the fact that Gatehouse likes it!
...don't know how to operate a lathe...and I barely remained awake while reading about your .2-something-or-other Penguin or whatever the heck it was called......but this cartridge sounds like a gem!
I'm not even put off by the fact that Gatehouse likes it!
Ah jjohn..........a lover of BIG girls I gather, no interest in the petite ones...........Well stay tuned because now that winter is nearly here I'll be playing with some other ones that I have in mind. I have a .475 barrel that was crying at me today to be made into a rifle and another .458 that was whining it wanted to become a 458 WSM. I have another Sako 7mm STW barrel that may want to become a 7mm-300 Wby or maybe another 7 RUM.
I just happen to have a 475 on a shortened 416 Rigby reamer that may wish to mate with my 475 barrel, and a couple 98 actions that may want to become the glue that holds it all together..........I also have a really nice older Pete Grisel walnut 98 stock to fit it into.
I was looking for my 9.3 barrel because I want to mate it to my flat side Mod 95 Winchester and build a 9.3-405 on it...........should be interesting.
I also have another 416 barrel that I'm not sure what to do with it, maybe a 416-350 RM which I have always wanted to build, but then there is the WSM case which fits the same action.............I have spare 375 and 300 RUM barrels, 1/2 doz .234 barrels a few .224 barrels, a bunch of 7mm and 30 cal barrels some 6mm and God know what else is on the rack.
One thing I am going to build for sure is an 8X68 Imp 30*, I have two quite nice Husqvarna 8X57s one of which will become the 8X68 Imp. Have had the reamer for years in 7X68 Imp and also have the 8mm N&Tr, it's just a matter of getting after it.
Anyway going to have some fun this winter...............I have several actions and donor rifles to play with and I bought 3-700 Rem bolts a short .473 face, a short .532 face and a long .473 face. Possibilities are pretty much endless............I also have another long 700 and 3 bolts for it 2 standard .473 and a .532 so who knows what may happen...............
In fact, if there is anything anybody here would like to see developed, pipe up and I'll see if I have a suitable action and barrel....but let's not get carried away with 585 Nyati's and the like, let's stay with sub 475 and Rigby or 404 Jeff (RUM) cases at the largest. These big girls are starting to give me a headache and a twitch..............let's try to keep it under 7000 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and 100 ft/lbs of free recoil OK?
I just happen to have a 475 on a shortened 416 Rigby reamer that may wish to mate with my 475 barrel, and a couple 98 actions that may want to become the glue that holds it all together..........I also have a really nice older Pete Grisel walnut 98 stock to fit it into.
I was looking for my 9.3 barrel because I want to mate it to my flat side Mod 95 Winchester and build a 9.3-405 on it...........should be interesting.
I also have another 416 barrel that I'm not sure what to do with it, maybe a 416-350 RM which I have always wanted to build, but then there is the WSM case which fits the same action.............I have spare 375 and 300 RUM barrels, 1/2 doz .234 barrels a few .224 barrels, a bunch of 7mm and 30 cal barrels some 6mm and God know what else is on the rack.
One thing I am going to build for sure is an 8X68 Imp 30*, I have two quite nice Husqvarna 8X57s one of which will become the 8X68 Imp. Have had the reamer for years in 7X68 Imp and also have the 8mm N&Tr, it's just a matter of getting after it.
Anyway going to have some fun this winter...............I have several actions and donor rifles to play with and I bought 3-700 Rem bolts a short .473 face, a short .532 face and a long .473 face. Possibilities are pretty much endless............I also have another long 700 and 3 bolts for it 2 standard .473 and a .532 so who knows what may happen...............
In fact, if there is anything anybody here would like to see developed, pipe up and I'll see if I have a suitable action and barrel....but let's not get carried away with 585 Nyati's and the like, let's stay with sub 475 and Rigby or 404 Jeff (RUM) cases at the largest. These big girls are starting to give me a headache and a twitch..............let's try to keep it under 7000 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and 100 ft/lbs of free recoil OK?
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I'd love to see the 25/20 ballistics duplicated in a modern bolt action. Shouldn't give you a flinch lol. I can't seem to find a Winchester in my price range and the husqvarna singles that I do find aren't in good condition. I think it would be ideal for small edible game and still be great for calling coyotes and coons. I realize my rimfires could suit my needs but it would be fun to reload and tinker with cast and jacketed bullets
Who says it "tops out" at 8mm?
If you wanted a nice bolt action capable 25 cal cartridge, look at the wildcat 25-223..........load it like a 25-20 and run it through any appropriate bolt gun, easy to make and free brass everywhere............there is also the 25 Hornet, but not as easy to work with, or to make feed..........
If it were me wanting such a rifle as a small 25 cal, I would take the 223 case and blow it out to 25 cal and then move the shoulder back to give about a .300" neck, this would make a great cast bullet shooter as well as a heavy jacketed bullet shooter without encroaching on powder space. Give it about a 1-10 twist and you could easily shoot 100 gn jacketed bullets and maybe even heavier, if you wanted to. 1-10 should also stabilize any cast bullet you may want to run.
Just thinking out loud here, so to speak.
I did something similar to build a silhouette cartridge many years back. The very first barrel I ever made with Bevan was a 30 cal 1-10 twist, which he then gave me. I decided to use this barrel to build my silhouette rifle around on a 788 Rem action and an HS thumbhole stock. Anyway I used a 300 Savage case and moved the shoulder back until I had a .400" long neck, retaining the 30* shoulder of the original case. Ballistics were essentially the same as the 308X1.5" but with a longer neck. It turned out very well and shot sub MOA with both 150 and 180 gn bullets and it shot them with no horizontal differences. This turned out to be an outstanding silhouette cartridge with enough power with 150s out to turkeys and lots with 180s on rams and a minimum of recoil to do the job.......Still didn't really help my scores, but a great cartridge design........
If you wanted a nice bolt action capable 25 cal cartridge, look at the wildcat 25-223..........load it like a 25-20 and run it through any appropriate bolt gun, easy to make and free brass everywhere............there is also the 25 Hornet, but not as easy to work with, or to make feed..........
If it were me wanting such a rifle as a small 25 cal, I would take the 223 case and blow it out to 25 cal and then move the shoulder back to give about a .300" neck, this would make a great cast bullet shooter as well as a heavy jacketed bullet shooter without encroaching on powder space. Give it about a 1-10 twist and you could easily shoot 100 gn jacketed bullets and maybe even heavier, if you wanted to. 1-10 should also stabilize any cast bullet you may want to run.
Just thinking out loud here, so to speak.
I did something similar to build a silhouette cartridge many years back. The very first barrel I ever made with Bevan was a 30 cal 1-10 twist, which he then gave me. I decided to use this barrel to build my silhouette rifle around on a 788 Rem action and an HS thumbhole stock. Anyway I used a 300 Savage case and moved the shoulder back until I had a .400" long neck, retaining the 30* shoulder of the original case. Ballistics were essentially the same as the 308X1.5" but with a longer neck. It turned out very well and shot sub MOA with both 150 and 180 gn bullets and it shot them with no horizontal differences. This turned out to be an outstanding silhouette cartridge with enough power with 150s out to turkeys and lots with 180s on rams and a minimum of recoil to do the job.......Still didn't really help my scores, but a great cartridge design........
This is somewhat off topic for the 450 Ruger Imp but on the theme of wildcatting and relevant to what I just said to BB...........One of the first rules of wildcatting, in my view, is to start with a case that is common as dirt, keeping your development costs to a minimum. I made all my silhouette cases from once fired LC military match 308 brass that I was given. Working with the 375 Ruger and the 300 Win mag case makes sense because of the quantity of 300 WM brass out there and in any flavor your tastes run to. Likewise a small 25 cal on the 223 case which for all intents and purposes is free by the thousands. I used to have a TC Contender in 7mm TCU (7mm-223) and another barrel in 357 Herrett, (based on a 30-30) I have 100s of rounds still for each and I don't think any of the brass cost me a dollar. This also has a lot to do with the popularity of all the 308 based cartridges and 30-06 family........brass is all but free almost anywhere.
You can form and shape and change shoulder angle and position but start with a common case and keep your investment to a minimum until you have decided if it is worth going full out or not. I used to do all kinds of things with the 284 Win case but of late it seems to have lost it's commonality. Used to be able to pick up a couple hundred anytime you wanted, same with the 350 RM but those days appear to be gone........
You can form and shape and change shoulder angle and position but start with a common case and keep your investment to a minimum until you have decided if it is worth going full out or not. I used to do all kinds of things with the 284 Win case but of late it seems to have lost it's commonality. Used to be able to pick up a couple hundred anytime you wanted, same with the 350 RM but those days appear to be gone........
Yes, Doug, I am a lover of the "big girls", as you say. Not just because they're fun to shoot; a 1-inch group of .45-cal holes is so much more visually impressive than the same size group shot with a .17-cal!
I seem to recall reading the same thing as brybenn regarding the WSM design not working well once bullet diameter passed 8mm. Winchester was apparently thinking about a .358WSM...I had my wallet in my hand!...but they eventually decided that it just wouldn't be efficient for some reason, and so they went with the 8mm/.325WSM instead, and said that was as large a bullet as they would utilize in a WSM case.
I also remember reading many years ago about a wildcat designed by John Wootters, a .222 case necked up to .25-cal. Think it was called the .25Copperhead; he said that it was designed specifically for game smaller than deer. It sounded like a wonderful little toy, brybenn. I think it outclassed the .25-20 by a bit, but still a low-noise, no-recoil small-game slayer. Probably feeds pretty slick too.
I seem to recall reading the same thing as brybenn regarding the WSM design not working well once bullet diameter passed 8mm. Winchester was apparently thinking about a .358WSM...I had my wallet in my hand!...but they eventually decided that it just wouldn't be efficient for some reason, and so they went with the 8mm/.325WSM instead, and said that was as large a bullet as they would utilize in a WSM case.
I also remember reading many years ago about a wildcat designed by John Wootters, a .222 case necked up to .25-cal. Think it was called the .25Copperhead; he said that it was designed specifically for game smaller than deer. It sounded like a wonderful little toy, brybenn. I think it outclassed the .25-20 by a bit, but still a low-noise, no-recoil small-game slayer. Probably feeds pretty slick too.
JJ..........Winchester may have decided that the cartridge capacity was only sufficient for their needs to 8mm but look how effective and efficient the 350 RM is. I can't see a downside to a 350 RM with a few more grains of powder capacity...........or possibly they really missed the boat by not making a 375 WSM. Then on the other end of the scale I think they missed the boat big time in ignoring the 6.5 WSM...........I suspect maybe the 6.5 RM and 350 RM had something to do with their decision making process, more than ballistics.........
I also have to agree that pumpkin size holes all clustered one on top of the other is certainly satisfying..........anybody can shoot a sub moa group with a 22-250, but it takes a real man to do it with a ___________.(fill in your favorite African dangerous game cartridge)!!
Back to the 450 Ruger Imp...........I have no bedding materials left on the property, so it is on hold until I find some, I guess..........Actually, because I'm on hold until at least Fri when I go to town again, I think I'll chuck 'er back up and spin a thread off and reset it back to the original planned cartridge. I have limited components for this caliber (500 grnrs anyway) and I have decided that I would prefer to expend them with the correct length cartridge rather than the completely irrelevant 2.7" cartridge which will not fit in a Ruger standard magnum action. This will bring my case length back to about 2.635 which is still longer than the 416 Ruger but should fit in the Ruger action and give me the full capability of this action, and allow crimping of the 500 gn bullet in the cannelure and still fit into the magazine. If it does not then I shall take it back another thread and rechamber until it does fit.
I know some of you are asking yourselves why not just take it back until it fits and call it good...........This barrel has sights and I want the sights to come up and be correct so I have to work the barrel back 1 thread at a time so the sights come up. Luckily the Rem 700 is a 16 TPI thread so I can work it back .0625" at a time. I think 1 thread will get me into the length where I need to be and allow the sights to align properly.
I also have to agree that pumpkin size holes all clustered one on top of the other is certainly satisfying..........anybody can shoot a sub moa group with a 22-250, but it takes a real man to do it with a ___________.(fill in your favorite African dangerous game cartridge)!!
Back to the 450 Ruger Imp...........I have no bedding materials left on the property, so it is on hold until I find some, I guess..........Actually, because I'm on hold until at least Fri when I go to town again, I think I'll chuck 'er back up and spin a thread off and reset it back to the original planned cartridge. I have limited components for this caliber (500 grnrs anyway) and I have decided that I would prefer to expend them with the correct length cartridge rather than the completely irrelevant 2.7" cartridge which will not fit in a Ruger standard magnum action. This will bring my case length back to about 2.635 which is still longer than the 416 Ruger but should fit in the Ruger action and give me the full capability of this action, and allow crimping of the 500 gn bullet in the cannelure and still fit into the magazine. If it does not then I shall take it back another thread and rechamber until it does fit.
I know some of you are asking yourselves why not just take it back until it fits and call it good...........This barrel has sights and I want the sights to come up and be correct so I have to work the barrel back 1 thread at a time so the sights come up. Luckily the Rem 700 is a 16 TPI thread so I can work it back .0625" at a time. I think 1 thread will get me into the length where I need to be and allow the sights to align properly.
- Location
- In the shadows of the Rockies
I wasn't even thinking of the increased difficulty of shooting good groups with a big boomer, though of course you're right about that...but a 3-shot or 5-shot 1-inch group shot with a .45 or .50 is usually a one-holer. The same size group shot with a .17 looks like a miniature buckshot pattern out of a 12-gauge.
I'm not sure I'd want to own that .700 in the pic, but I'd love to shoot it...it looks like a prop gun from the next Hellboy movie!
I'm not sure I'd want to own that .700 in the pic, but I'd love to shoot it...it looks like a prop gun from the next Hellboy movie!
Sorry for the off topic about the 25. I was very interested in the new 25/45 sharps which is a 25/223. The issue was I couldn't find any low velocity loads. I'm not sure enough to start on my own working up loads.
Winchester ppl decided the wsm case if it swallowed a 338 cal bullet wouldn't be marketable as it couldn't catch the 338 wm thus they went 325/8mm
I too love big bores. Especially 458. I wish I had the tools and experience you do Doug.
I do have 10-12 500 gr round nose woodlieghs if you'd like I could send them out to for this project.
They're like solids in my 45/70 and my 458 wm shoots the 400 gr ppsn to well to switch. Africa is a couple years away for me
Winchester ppl decided the wsm case if it swallowed a 338 cal bullet wouldn't be marketable as it couldn't catch the 338 wm thus they went 325/8mm
I too love big bores. Especially 458. I wish I had the tools and experience you do Doug.
I do have 10-12 500 gr round nose woodlieghs if you'd like I could send them out to for this project.
They're like solids in my 45/70 and my 458 wm shoots the 400 gr ppsn to well to switch. Africa is a couple years away for me
Thanks for the offer BB but no thanks, I won't likely be using Woodleigh in it anyway and I have about 70 or so 510 gn W-W to play with for now. After that I haven't decided what bullet I may try or end up settling on............They all seem to work well when the velocity is under 2600 fps and they weigh 60 some odd grains more than an ounce..........Actually in the bigger stuff from 416 up I have had good luck with Horn round noses. My .470 NE digests quite enough Woodleighs at nearly 4 bucks a pop............
Douglas, this is a fascinating thread, totally enjoyable.
I am wondering how much more your creation has than my 450 / 348 AI.
Mine is built on a Ruger #1 and last time I played with it I think it passed my 458.
I was up to about 70.0 gr. H322 under a 500 gr. Hornady and my shoulder was starting to complain.
Now that I have a decent chronograph and when my old body is willing I will try getting some numbers.
I am wondering how much more your creation has than my 450 / 348 AI.
Mine is built on a Ruger #1 and last time I played with it I think it passed my 458.
I was up to about 70.0 gr. H322 under a 500 gr. Hornady and my shoulder was starting to complain.
Now that I have a decent chronograph and when my old body is willing I will try getting some numbers.
Kevan, according to case capacities it should equal or exceed the 458 Lott. I'll have to do another case capacity comparison after I shorten it to fit the Ruger magazine but I'm certain it'll still equal the Lott..........so add 300 or so feet to the 458 WM. So somewhere around the 6500 ft/lbs mark for energy. A true biggie thumper...........This ain't no 45-70............
That 458-348 of yours, that is known colloquially as the 450 Alaskan........yes/no? Supposed to be a helluva cartridge in a modern steel 86 or as originally chambered in the 71. Don't think I'd like to shoot it with the original rifle butt 86, or even with the steel shotgun butt 71.......pretty sure I wouldn't like it.......my 95 in 405, with the rifle butt is about as ugly as I want to shoot sans a recoil pad..........
That 458-348 of yours, that is known colloquially as the 450 Alaskan........yes/no? Supposed to be a helluva cartridge in a modern steel 86 or as originally chambered in the 71. Don't think I'd like to shoot it with the original rifle butt 86, or even with the steel shotgun butt 71.......pretty sure I wouldn't like it.......my 95 in 405, with the rifle butt is about as ugly as I want to shoot sans a recoil pad..........
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The 450 / 348 AI is ever so slightly different than the 450 Alaskan, so much so that they are not interchangeable.
I came by mine quite by accident.
I had a Ruger # 1 in 30-06 and I wanted it rebarreled and chambered to 450 Alaskan.
However, when I received the rifle and started fire forming brass there was no way the fired cases would go through a 450 Alaskan sizer die, so a call to my Brother got a 450 / 348 sizer die on the way and it works perfectly.
Final analysis was that the gunsmith reamed the chamber with the wrong reamer but as it were all is good and I am happy.
I came by mine quite by accident.
I had a Ruger # 1 in 30-06 and I wanted it rebarreled and chambered to 450 Alaskan.
However, when I received the rifle and started fire forming brass there was no way the fired cases would go through a 450 Alaskan sizer die, so a call to my Brother got a 450 / 348 sizer die on the way and it works perfectly.
Final analysis was that the gunsmith reamed the chamber with the wrong reamer but as it were all is good and I am happy.
