The Bren 2 - Making A Name For Itself In Modern Combat

I have a fair bit of experience with both the Bren2 and the B+T APC. B+T is IMO the better of the two, unless I am missing something significant.

Unless I'm missing something, one's a carbine and the other is an SMG. Very different platforms for different uses/purposes.

*Edit - I definitely missed something. Didn't realize B&T had an APC223 carbine.

Not sure if I would pick any of these options over an ar15, but I can see why one would be forced to do so in Canada and the silly laws.
 
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Great comparison!, I was looking at getting a Bren 2, realistically how many rounds you figure before the receiver is gone?

That I don't know. Traditionally this kind of guns like SCAR G36 have steel inserts for the bolt and cam pin to ride on. AR receiver without insert will last over 20K at least in the cam pin receiver wear so the rough guess it should last at least 20K?

It is probably I will actually say for sure it is cheaper ( after time and effort )to buy a new one than rebuilding. Rebuilding is a bit of false economy IMHO ( like how the government deals with cheap small arms like C7 - the money spent on collecting, transporting and "processing")

But yeh, B&T guns do feel "smooth" like butter in working the action, better fit and finisher...... but does it do anything more in a practical sense over Bren M2? - the answer is no if the criterium are only shooting bullets reliably, do not stop working over random stupid things and do not break first before your wallet breaks over ammo.

Also based on round count, I will say the B&T LW barrel is pretty good. I can say that it looks like new for the same round count that would have turned a bit obvious for some of the so-called US commercial "tier 1" chromelined "AR" barrel.

But you can also tell B&T has a custom die for an extrusion tube, so it tries its best to cut everything from the tube with minimum waster ( handguard and receiver) - some smart design there in cost control where they could. CZ is doing all these weird geometry to lose weight but then they design a handguard made up of a million pieces for their civilian model, that needs some dude to screw them all together. All the efficiency in receiver manufacturing done by robots is wasted by the guy screwing handguards together with loctite.
 
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That I don't know. Traditionally this kind of guns like SCAR G36 have steel inserts for the bolt and cam pin to ride on. AR receiver without insert will last over 20K at least in the cam pin receiver wear so the rough guess it should last at least 20K?

It is probably I will actually say for sure it is cheaper ( after time and effort )to buy a new one than rebuilding. Rebuilding is a bit of false economy IMHO ( like how the government deals with cheap small arms like C7 - the money spent on collecting, transporting and "processing")

But yeh, B&T guns do feel "smooth" like butter in working the action, better fit and finisher...... but does it do anything more in a practical sense over Bren M2? - the answer is no if the criterium are only shooting bullets reliably, do not stop working over random stupid things and do not break first before your wallet breaks over ammo.

Also based on round count, I will say the B&T LW barrel is pretty good. I can say that it looks like new for the same round count that would have turned a bit obvious for some of the so-called US commercial "tier 1" chromelined "AR" barrel.

But you can also tell B&T has a custom die for an extrusion tube, so it tries its best to cut everything from the tube with minimum waster ( handguard and receiver) - some smart design there in cost control where they could. CZ is doing all these weird geometry to lose weight but then they design a handguard made up of a million pieces for their civilian model, that needs some dude to screw them all together. All the efficiency in receiver manufacturing done by robots is wasted by the guy screwing handguards together with loctite.

It is interesting reading this post. Got me to thinking.

While I'm certainly no wizard or firearms engineer, one thing I've noticed with ARs (or the C7 in this case) is that I think they last as long as they do because thanks to the direct impingement gas system, they tend to quit running reliably due to carbon fouling long before they start to eat themselves. My x39 Bren runs almost clinically clean by comparison. I have nothing to qualify this statement, but based on how clean it is after firing some of the dirtiest ammo on the planet, I feel like it could be run to the point of eating itself due to a lack of lubrication as it doesn't have a carbon fouling problem that necessitates cleaning and lubricating. I'm guessing with some basic maintenance the CZ will run a long long time. Given my inherent distrust of all x39 primers, in my case it will get cleaned after each range trip.

Again, no actual academic data to support this thought. Just a thought.
 
Well, it looks like a Bren2 with 14" barrel is the way to go. The bayo lug on the 14" is also a cool feature.
 
While I'm certainly no wizard or firearms engineer, one thing I've noticed with ARs (or the C7 in this case) is that I think they last as long as they do because thanks to the direct impingement gas system, they tend to quit running reliably due to carbon fouling long before they start to eat themselves. I'm guessing with some basic maintenance the CZ will run a long long time.

Again, no actual academic data to support this thought. Just a thought.

This has not been my experience. I have a 14.5 AR built from random parts that has put up with more abuse than any AR should have to. I have rarely cleaned it and only then to just wipe it out a bit when I felt sorry for it. The gun has run reliably through thick and thin, with only a few squirts of oil into the upper receiver every once in a while. Run wet, the AR rarely needs to be cleaned. Sure it gets dirty and disgusting but it keeps going. My horribly abused, bitsa AR has never failed to cycle from not being cleaned.
 
You all have missed what is arguably the biggest factor that separates the Bren 2 and the B+T APC rifles and carbines in any discussion of practical utility - the basic unit weight. In sum, the B+T's design and manufacturing processes, based on milled and drilled rectangular bar stock, result in a very heavy carbine or rifle. The B+Ts are real pigs - boat anchors - that I certainly would not want to have to actually carry decked out with standard combat accessories such as an LPVO, Mount, IR Laser Designator, Flashlight, etc. The CZ Bren 2 on the other hand, is designed in such a manner that the production processes result in the slimmest possible parts and the lightest possible assembled weight through the use of machined forgings and carbon-fibre reinforced Polymer (Lower Receiver and Buttstock). In other words, the Bren 2's processes and materials are optimized for light weight, understanding as the CZ engineers do, that service rifles are typically carried much more than they are ever fired.

Reliablity, accuracy and durability are all moot if the firearm is left behind because it is heavy pain in the arse to carry. The APCs are one of the heaviest platforms on the planet, due entirely to B+Ts design and production philosophies. I own a 10.5" APC223 which is a beautiful firearm in terms of fit, finish, reliability, accuracy and ergonomics (less WEIGHT). That said, I would not willingly choose to carry one in combat. Hands-down, my choice today would be the 14" Bren 2. YMMV, and that is fine. But there is no disputing the weight issue, which at the end of the day is what any comparison of the APC223 and Bren 2 must ultimately boil down to.
 
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The new version of APC is lighter after they cut down the gas block size - they also open up the handguard ventilation holes. It can't get away with any more weight reduction because it has a bigger trunnion and probably a slightly heavier receiver. Small additional and slightly thicker/bigger things like gas system push rod and extra buffer system all add a bit here and there. The newer version pretty much eliminate ( based on their need to succeed in the US market ) all the dumb stubborn things the swiss thought that were good "swiss" ideas.

I do like the old APC reciprocating charging handle. IMHO they are more reliable and durable - if there is ever a need to kick or bang the thing open when it is jammed shut. It probably will survive better. I don't trust these non-reciprocating charging handles as much, that work with plastic and small pins. Personally the original AR18/AK or even the AR is better than anything that interfaces with roll pin/detent/spring/plastic/more "channels" for the thing to slide back and fort. But the American commercial market is obsessed with only the ergonomics of "shooting", and we get what they ask for.
 
This has not been my experience. I have a 14.5 AR built from random parts that has put up with more abuse than any AR should have to. I have rarely cleaned it and only then to just wipe it out a bit when I felt sorry for it. The gun has run reliably through thick and thin, with only a few squirts of oil into the upper receiver every once in a while. Run wet, the AR rarely needs to be cleaned. Sure it gets dirty and disgusting but it keeps going. My horribly abused, bitsa AR has never failed to cycle from not being cleaned.

Where direct impingent systems struggle without cleaning is when running suppressed. Pistons keep a lot of that gas and crud out of the chamber/bolt, but a DI dumps it right there. You have to be a lot more diligent in cleaning your ar-15 when running suppressed - with moderate suppressor use I can make my ar15's impossible to rack if I don't clean them.

Pistons have their own issues though.
 
This has not been my experience. I have a 14.5 AR built from random parts that has put up with more abuse than any AR should have to. I have rarely cleaned it and only then to just wipe it out a bit when I felt sorry for it. The gun has run reliably through thick and thin, with only a few squirts of oil into the upper receiver every once in a while. Run wet, the AR rarely needs to be cleaned. Sure it gets dirty and disgusting but it keeps going. My horribly abused, bitsa AR has never failed to cycle from not being cleaned.

If I'm honest, that is what I was getting at. It needs some lube to run dirty. From what I have experienced so far with the Bren 2 it doesn't really get dirty even when running Chinese copper wash. So without a bunch of fouling demanding at least a periodic lube, it would be easy to eventually have metal on metal chowdering shortening its life if the operator didn't give it lube once in a while. Interestingly enough, CZ recommends a 2500 round cleaning/lubricating interval. As an aside, although a piston gun my WS-MCR in x39 gets substantially dirtier from the same amount of firing, but I chalk some of that up to the carbine length gas system on a rifle length barrel.
 
That I don't know. Traditionally this kind of guns like SCAR G36 have steel inserts for the bolt and cam pin to ride on. AR receiver without insert will last over 20K at least in the cam pin receiver wear so the rough guess it should last at least 20K?

It is probably I will actually say for sure it is cheaper ( after time and effort )to buy a new one than rebuilding. Rebuilding is a bit of false economy IMHO ( like how the government deals with cheap small arms like C7 - the money spent on collecting, transporting and "processing")

But yeh, B&T guns do feel "smooth" like butter in working the action, better fit and finisher...... but does it do anything more in a practical sense over Bren M2? - the answer is no if the criterium are only shooting bullets reliably, do not stop working over random stupid things and do not break first before your wallet breaks over ammo.

Also based on round count, I will say the B&T LW barrel is pretty good. I can say that it looks like new for the same round count that would have turned a bit obvious for some of the so-called US commercial "tier 1" chromelined "AR" barrel.

But you can also tell B&T has a custom die for an extrusion tube, so it tries its best to cut everything from the tube with minimum waster ( handguard and receiver) - some smart design there in cost control where they could. CZ is doing all these weird geometry to lose weight but then they design a handguard made up of a million pieces for their civilian model, that needs some dude to screw them all together. All the efficiency in receiver manufacturing done by robots is wasted by the guy screwing handguards together with loctite.

How is the B&T reliability wise for you? I have heard of broken firing pins, cam pins, extractors, etc. Also lots of videos showing cycling issues and unreliable performance.

So far the Bren 2 MS seems extremely reliable judging by YouTube videos.
 
Yeah, that's another point that was mentioned - Bren 2 has battle proven reliability and when I say battle proved I mean Verdun WWI like conditions of trench and urban warfare in Ukraine. I literally heard no single bad word about them.
 
When the Bren 2 Non-Restricted was first hinted at here in Canada, the price was going to be noticeably less than the price of an APC Non-Restricted, which was very attractive.

Now, however, the Bren 2 Non-Restricted costs quite abit more than first thought. My understanding is that the Bren 2 Non-Restricted are not being manufactured/delivered by CZ as originally expected, but instead, shorter barrel CZ Bren 2s are being modified in Canada by having the longer non-restricted barrel replace the shorter barrel. This is great innovation and service offered by our Canadian gun industry - and it offers choice to consumers when the OEM does not deliver. It shows that they truly understand our unique Canadian situation.

I cannot help but think, however, that one is getting less gun for the money because one is paying for two barrels (the original shorter one and the newly installed longer one, in order for the Bren 2 to be Non-Restricted) and any retrofit costs - when compared to the APC. Thoughts?
 
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The restricted version is great with factory barrel. There have been poor (to me) accuracy reports for the aftermarket barrels in the Bren. If N/R is a must I'd go APC. If you want to save money and wait for the transfer go Bren.
 
The restricted version is great with factory barrel. There have been poor (to me) accuracy reports for the aftermarket barrels in the Bren. If N/R is a must I'd go APC. If you want to save money and wait for the transfer go Bren.


The Brens that have been barrel by RDSC shoot wonderfully. I had my 16” converted with a 18.6 Criterion barrel and with a simple hand load it shoots 3/4” groups all day if I do my part. I’ve been working at setting mine up as a GP/DMR type rifle because of the length.


 
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