The Great Survival Rifle / Pack Rifle Experiment of 2016/17

[wayupnorth]

Extra Test

Float Test for the Henry AR7.
was a quiet weekend so I took a couple minutes and decided to test to see if my AR7 would indeed float.
if you choose to watch the video you will see my attempts to get the gun to float.
you'll notice i used the word 'attempt' because the test was a failure.

as the gun comes out of the box i was only able to get it to stay afloat for 34 seconds.
i was not to impressed with that.
i guess for Henry's part they never do state HOW LONG their gun will stay afloat for.... so i cant fault them for that, i guess i was expecting more.

so while doing the test i started to experiment with the gun to see if i could make it float longer.
i think what is needed for it to stay afloat for a long time would be a rubber gasket make for it, which im kinda surprised there isnt one seeing as there is a groove cut into the but pad that would hold a rubber gasket perfectly.

on hand i didnt have a rubber band or gasket but i did have some rubber gloves so i tried that.
on test 2 i was able to improve the float of the gun up to 1:27 with just the addition of a rubber glove.

for test 3 i tried a better placement of the rubber glove and was able to increase the float time of the gun to 3:34.

i think when im done the tests and i put this gun into service my plan for it will be to seal it with my wife's food sealer into a plastic bag along with a box or 2 of ammo.
that will make the package 100% water proof and air proof (rust) that way the gun can be stored on my boat and i wont have to worry about it.

and, once again i had to fully disassemble the gun and clean it and dry it.
if i dont walk away after this experiment with at least a very intimate knowledge of how all these guns work down to the last screw and spring, yeeesh!

for your viewing pleasure:

 

[Kosolofski21]

What perfect timing for a test like this as I am in the market for one of these, great write up so far looking forward to your verdict

 

[PPCLI-Jim]

Thanks for the side by side comparison, this is my pack gun a Keltec Sub 2K i may not carry as much ammo as a .22 LR but i can easily pack a box of 50 rds. It's very easy to maintain very lightweight at 4.5 lb, it packs away small I can take small game with it and even larger game if required.

 

[wayupnorth]

Thanks for the side by side comparison, this is my pack gun a Keltec Sub 2K i may not carry as much ammo as a .22 LR but i can easily pack a box of 50 rds. It's very easy to maintain very lightweight at 4.5 lb, it packs away small I can take small game with it and even larger game if required.

while a nice concept and i DO like the 9mm carbine for a survival rifle i cant get behind a Keltech.
1) all the ones ive fondled have felt super cheap
2) while i dont mind cheap feeling guns i do not like to pay $750 for a cheap feeling gun, the price of them is easily double what they are worth.
3) availability - in stark contrast to the 4x22cal rifles ive pointed out above they are all available at pretty much every gun store in canada and by the dozens, the Keltech are rarer then hens teeth.

i AM currently in the market for a 9mm rifle that will take the mags from my Glock so i have looked at the Keltech a lot but im going to pay the extra couple hundred bucks and get a Just Right Carbine, more reliable more after market parts and you can actually find them for sale.

im not saying i wouldnt buy a keltech if i stumbled upon a Gen 1 for $350, i would, but im not gonna drop almost $800 on when i can get 10x the gun in any of the 22's listed here for 1/3 the price.

just my thoughts.

ya know, speaking of Keltech i wish their shotgun was available up here again for cheaper and actually available, as a left handed shooter i would dearly love to pick one of those up.

 

[X-Treme]

Just wanted to give a heads up to any potential purchasers. Cabelas has the 10/22 Takedown on sale right now for $420. Down from $550 i believe. HOWEVER, it is not available online. In store only. And, of course, all the Alberta stores are out of stock.

Edit... If someone is gonna grab one, and wanted to reimburse me for my info, by also picking up one for me, and shipping it to me (I'll pay costs incurred), I would be forever grateful.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

the only thing that really bothers me about the keltech, is the trigger. Brothers gen2 sub 2000 runs way more reliably than my jr carbine.

 

[Harris26]

The sub 2000 is a great little PAC gun. They are hard to get because they are in such demand. Kel tec can' crank them out fast enough. When I am out in the middle of no where a 9mm loaded with buffalo bore 9mm +P makes me feel a whole lot more secure than a .22.

 

[Mikey66]

Just sold my gen2 Subbie (trying to downsize). It was worth every penny. Once I got used to it, it was accurate enough out to 100m once I was able to get a consistant cheek weld (not easy). Never a hiccup, no ftf no fte, easy to clean and disasemble. But I felt the 9mm was just not a usefull calibre for the outdoors. Now I carry a Henry mare's leg in 44mag when I'm out & about.

 

[Zum]

The sub 2000 is a great little PAC gun. They are hard to get because they are in such demand. Kel tec can' crank them out fast enough. When I am out in the middle of no where a 9mm loaded with buffalo bore 9mm +P makes me feel a whole lot more secure than a .22.

That's nice, maybe someone will start their own thread and we can read about it there.
Looking forward to more updates on the 22's , appreciate the time and money your putting into this, thanks again.

 

[Mikey66]

Re your Ar floatability test:
There were bubbles coming out of the receiver end. Where you able to find out exactly from where? A bit of silicon and the rubber glove could probably seal it up completely.
My "tiny Henry" just shipped, can't wait to get my hands on it. First step will be to shave down that huge front sight.

 

[FreedomIsn'tFree]

I like my M6 Scout .22/410 for survival rifle, but I have never put it through the extreme test. From what I have seen from it, I believe it would hold up well as a survival/ pack rifle in all conditions.

 

[wayupnorth]

well, im back from the range.
just spent 3 hours out there shooting the AR7 and the Papoose scoped @50m and 100m.

im felling very let down.
i dont know if im just spoiled from shooting some really nice guns last couple years or if im just having a awful day behind the gun but the targets look like i went at them with a shotgun not a scoped 22.

maybe these pack guns just are not meant to be shot @50 and @100 meters?

i can say without a doubt that i would never shoot small game past 25m let alone out to 50m and i would never shoot a 22 @100m.
my hold over for the 100m was like 12" over the target!!!

i dont know.
feeling a little disheartened after 3 hours shooting.
it was -10 with a slight breeze.... what would you guys think is acceptable for a scoped 22 @50m and @100m for group sizes with bulk ammo????
2"?
10"?
minute of 10"x12" piece of paper???

just sat back and looked at the targets again.
take off the odd flyer and they are shooting 2 1/2" to 3" groups @50m id estimate.
ill put them into the measuring program later tonight when im not feeling so blue about the shoot.

im thinking that maybe im just spoiled with the last couple years only shooting CZ452 and Custom 10/22's and tricked out with big glass on them.
maybe this is all these guns can do, they are pack guns.
i for some reason just imagined that my open site shooting @22m would be about what i could expect @50m with optics on.
but its not, at least not for the AR7 and the Papoose.

tomorrow im taking the Ruger and the little badger out to test them.
i think im also gonna take out my CZ or my big Dlask 10/22 and shoot them as well.
at least that will tell me if its me or the guns, right?

hell its not like im getting younger, eyes dont get better with age!

 

[wayupnorth]

could also be the ammo, its not like i tuned any of these guns to see which ammo they preferred, im just blasting with the same old CCI Blazers.

 

[Tom E Gun]

First of all: great thread so far, keep this up and manufactureres will be sending you rifles to test !

I think maybe you are expecting a lot from some of these little rifles. Why not do a scoped test at 25m, after all you are just trying to compare their accuracy by using the scope as a testing tool. Most people are not going to put a scope on a compact survival rifle and expect to hit a squirrel at 100m. Also I think testing all rifles with one type of cheap bulk ammo is the way to go. Most people are not going to do exhaustive testing of ammo, they will just grab a box or 2 and expect it to do the job.

Don't get discouraged.

ps: if you think some of these rifles are not very accurate you should try a smooth bore .22 adapter in a 12 gauge shotgun with a bead sight. I swear I would not be able to hit a squirrel at 10 ft, but some people use them in their survival kits.

 

[kodiakjack]

Do you have a lead sled wayupnorth? Or something similar?

You could forego scoping them at all, and just strap them into a real solid lead sled, and fire off a 20, 30, or even 50 round group at 25 or 50 yards. That would give a real clear depiction of each rifles inherent accuracy, and remove yourself from the equation, as well as any other in inconsistent variables in loved in the mounting of the scopes. One rifle might look like a shotgun blast, while another might bore out a fist sized hole with a few fliers scattered about.

 

[wayupnorth]

Do you have a lead sled wayupnorth? Or something similar?

You could forego scoping them at all, and just strap them into a real solid lead sled, and fire off a 20, 30, or even 50 round group at 25 or 50 yards. That would give a real clear depiction of each rifles inherent accuracy, and remove yourself from the equation, as well as any other in inconsistent variables in loved in the mounting of the scopes. One rifle might look like a shotgun blast, while another might bore out a fist sized hole with a few fliers scattered about.

funny you should say that, i do have one, i was even looking at it when i was leaving to go out today but i thought that maybe some people would give me the old "your not gonna have a lead slead out when your boating on the river are ya" so i opted to leave it.

but i do agree with what you said.

 

[sask31]

could also be the ammo, its not like i tuned any of these guns to see which ammo they preferred, im just blasting with the same old CCI Blazers.

I'd guess ammo. My papoose goes from a fist sized hole to around an inch at 40 yards from the 555 bulk winchester to the 1280fps? 37 or 38 gr non bulk

 

[wayupnorth]

Do you have a lead sled wayupnorth? Or something similar?

You could forego scoping them at all, and just strap them into a real solid lead sled, and fire off a 20, 30, or even 50 round group at 25 or 50 yards. That would give a real clear depiction of each rifles inherent accuracy, and remove yourself from the equation, as well as any other in inconsistent variables in loved in the mounting of the scopes. One rifle might look like a shotgun blast, while another might bore out a fist sized hole with a few fliers scattered about.

solid info.

 

[wayupnorth]

so, i sat upstairs sulking like a 2 year old and my wife finally got tired of me being an ass and told me to facetime my dad and talk it over with him.

which i did.

is there anything worse than being 44 years old and your 70 year old dad still has to talk your out of your tantrums?????

we had a good chat about all this and it put a lot into perspective for me.
1) these guns are not made to be bench guns.
these guns are made to be as light and compact as possible and still have a little bit of accuracy left at the end of the day to put some food in the pot, but accuracy is a distant 3rd to light and compactness.

2) will i ever actually put scopes on any of these guns or would a scope survive in the case with these rifles banging around in the quad bin or in the boat or in the truck?
no - chances are i wouldn't ever put a scope on these when i put them into service.

3) would i ever shoot past 20meters/yards at a squirrel or grouse?
no - i know my limitations and if its not a head shot there isnt gonna be anything left for the pot.

so if im not planing on putting a scope on these things and im not planning to shoot past 25m then whey the heck am i sitting way back at 50m and 100m lobbing rounds in?

grrrrrr!

so this is what im gonna do.
since i have the truck already loaded up for tomorrow and the Vortex is already on the Ruger and the Lil Badger is ready to go im gonna go ahead and run those 2 through the same test just for interest sake.

once that is done later this week i will take them all out and do a 25m bench shoot with the scope once again just to see how they shoot at 25 with a scope.

after that i called 3 guys i know and i asked them to give me a afternoon.
either as a group or individually.
i want them to take all 4 guns and go over them and then take them out and shoot them and test them out.
then i want to know what they think of them.
1 fella has a active trap line in Northern Alberta so these guns are right up his ally.
2nd fella worked in the bush for 30 years and has his small plane license and does a lot of mucking around in the bush (ice fishing on remote lakes and such) plus he is or was a farmer.
3rd fella is young and is Mr. Natureboy. he did HackCrew wild-land firefighting for a bunch of years (those crazy guys that drop in off the choppers in the middle of no where to fight forest fires)

like i said, gonna give them the guns and let them check them out and then take them out shooting.
want to get their opinions on the guns.

could add some interesting stuff i haven't thought about????

if the weight of shipping 4 rifles wasn't so much id even look at sending them out to a couple people on the forum to check out..... @Tom E Gun or @Elimsprint....

anyways, thats where im sitting with this.
bad mood over and back at it.

oh, im also gonna take out another gun tomorrow just to make sure its not me that all of a sudden cant shoot.

 

[wayupnorth]

First of all: great thread so far, keep this up and manufactureres will be sending you rifles to test !

I think maybe you are expecting a lot from some of these little rifles. Why not do a scoped test at 25m, after all you are just trying to compare their accuracy by using the scope as a testing tool. Most people are not going to put a scope on a compact survival rifle and expect to hit a squirrel at 100m. Also I think testing all rifles with one type of cheap bulk ammo is the way to go. Most people are not going to do exhaustive testing of ammo, they will just grab a box or 2 and expect it to do the job.

Don't get discouraged.

ps: if you think some of these rifles are not very accurate you should try a smooth bore .22 adapter in a 12 gauge shotgun with a bead sight. I swear I would not be able to hit a squirrel at 10 ft, but some people use them in their survival kits.

yup, exactly where my mind is at right now.