The IWI Carmel: Initial Thoughts and Observations **Range Report added on post #48**

frt says no muzzle brake included.
can anyone confirm this and whether or not new 18.5 barrels are threaded?
im assuming yes, but...
 
Honest Outlaw pointed out that polymer guns are easier to hold onto when it is extremely hot or cold out. How hot was it out when you were shooting? If it was hot, was the firearm ok to hold onto temperature wise? I wonder if you would freeze or burn on the Makasi's handguard, by comparison.
 
barsik said:
hopefully some enterprising person or company will see a business opportunity manufacturing custom carbon fiber buttstocks and fore ends for this rifle. with an LPVO this rifle will scale 10 lbs. or more. ugh. like packing an FN FAL without the punch.
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Carbon fibre is ok but that step in the receiver / handguard probably won't be easily replicated.

This is really just the way it is - this is the same with X95. There is no amount of "fixing" can make it handle more like an AR, hence the IDF and border guards just bought M4 and ARAD. One can spend tons of money to do this and do that, but it won't make much of a difference.

The receiver is tall - no matter what you do you can't change that and therefore all the things that are attached to a tall receiver must be as tall.

The brutal truth is that - the full plastic wrap around metal frame construction doesn't have enough juice for the squeeze. There was a certain allure to making things out of plastic in the 90s like g36 FN2000 - those things kinda make sense because they are almost fully plastic, especially FN2000 which is just a glorified airsoft gun with plastic clam shell construction held together by screws. IWI's way of wrapping plastic around disjointed receiver and trunnion pieces was their way of getting around of creating metal rails inside an aluminum extrusion box or folded steel box, which proved to be the way to go in mid 2000 by FN SCAR.

Personally I think they do work mechanically and they prove to be reliable in practical environment, but they are definitely not the most KISS in construction and the more efficient in the weight department + cost. Hence, they are a footnote already in small arms history.
 
Ustauk said:
Honest Outlaw pointed out that polymer guns are easier to hold onto when it is extremely hot or cold out. How hot was it out when you were shooting? If it was hot, was the firearm ok to hold onto temperature wise? I wonder if you would freeze or burn on the Makasi's handguard, by comparison.
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The temperature was in the low 20s so not super-warm. I fired the first 50 rounds in about 20 minutes or so and the rifle was not noticeably warm at all (other than the barrel itself of course).
 
Ustauk said:
e wise? I wonder if you would freeze or burn on the Makasi's handguard,
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greentips said:
Carbon fibre is ok but that step in the receiver / handguard probably won't be easily replicated.

This is really just the way it is - this is the same with X95. There is no amount of "fixing" can make it handle more like an AR, hence the IDF and border guards just bought M4 and ARAD. One can spend tons of money to do this and do that, but it won't make much of a difference.

The receiver is tall - no matter what you do you can't change that and therefore all the things that are attached to a tall receiver must be as tall.

The brutal truth is that - the full plastic wrap around metal frame construction doesn't have enough juice for the squeeze. There was a certain allure to making things out of plastic in the 90s like g36 FN2000 - those things kinda make sense because they are almost fully plastic, especially FN2000 which is just a glorified airsoft gun with plastic clam shell construction held together by screws. IWI's way of wrapping plastic around disjointed receiver and trunnion pieces was their way of getting around of creating metal rails inside an aluminum extrusion box or folded steel box, which proved to be the way to go in mid 2000 by FN SCAR.

Personally I think they do work mechanically and they prove to be reliable in practical environment, but they are definitely not the most KISS in construction and the more efficient in the weight department + cost. Hence, they are a footnote already in small arms history.
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I'm going to be that nerd about the X95, apologies in advance.

You can make the X95 more like the AR. You can change out the trigger pack and trigger with the Super Sabra Lightning Bow Trigger and Trigger Pack. The trigger reset is crisp and extremely tactile. Its as close as you can possibly get to an AR trigger. It is customizable so you can change it to whatever flavour you want, but you can't do much about the height over bore issue.

The X95 and T7 were introduced for CQB and further engagements. They're not deadly accurate, 2MoA with perfect conditions isn't a vote of confidence when dealing with distance engagements. Both M4 and X95 platforms have their uses.
 
PRRRoblematic said:
I'm going to be that nerd about the X95, apologies in advance.

You can make the X95 more like the AR. You can change out the trigger pack and trigger with the Super Sabra Lightning Bow Trigger and Trigger Pack. The trigger reset is crisp and extremely tactile. Its as close as you can possibly get to an AR trigger. It is customizable so you can change it to whatever flavour you want, but you can't do much about the height over bore issue.

The X95 and T7 were introduced for CQB and further engagements. They're not deadly accurate, 2MoA with perfect conditions isn't a vote of confidence when dealing with distance engagements. Both M4 and X95 platforms have their uses.
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I personally believe that the Israelis would have continued to produce and field the x95 had they not been in the fight for their lives. They simply can't afford to tool up and make small arms, when the US is pumping AR 15's out for a fraction of the price 4 times as fast as the Israelis could ever hope to.

I personally believe the AR to be a better platform. It's lighter by pounds, and if you're having to carry a rifle all day, you will appreciate a 6 pound carbine vs. a 10 pound one. But that's not to say the x95 isn't every bit as capable. It is.
 
Ustauk said:
Honest Outlaw pointed out that polymer guns are easier to hold onto when it is extremely hot or cold out. How hot was it out when you were shooting? If it was hot, was the firearm ok to hold onto temperature wise? I wonder if you would freeze or burn on the Makasi's handguard, by comparison.
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You can get all sorts of grips/rail covers for the Makasi, or just wear gloves.
 
Painkillers said:
I personally believe that the Israelis would have continued to produce and field the x95 had they not been in the fight for their lives. They simply can't afford to tool up and make small arms, when the US is pumping AR 15's out for a fraction of the price 4 times as fast as the Israelis could ever hope to.
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Very real challenged for them, but it also important to keep in mind that for a lot of years US government export credits made the cost of M4 extremely low for them, far less than producing their own small arms. This somewhat stunted domestic development, but I believe they are now moving towards a domestically produced M4, proving out your point as well!
 
A lot of countries try to make small arms as the first step to establish local industry.

But israelis these days are better with software, AI and other things. Steels and raw materials are still imported so factories will be idle even if they are setup when the ports are blocked, and the lack of depth of that nation( which also applies to singapore) also means only so much important industrial targets could be scatter.ed The supply chain could never be independent and protected.

So using brains working on a laptop connected to the cloud in exchange for physical materials/equipment is a good move, and it is ok to be selective as to what they want to make.

If you look at what singapore did, they also ended up buying Colt instead of making their own automatic rifles. small arms are expendable items but they can also be stock piled massively in distributed locations easily. they are also highly saturated market and everyone wants to dip their toes in this as a showcase of self reliance. While it is a bit of a first step for nations who just get into arms producing, dollar wise it is cheaper to stock pile massive amount of small arms from import instead of diverting resources away from more important stuff that others cannot make, in this case software and electronic stuff the Israelis are good at.

I think IWI is pretty successful in selling Galil ACE to south half of america, but X95 is a bit of a struggle. Personally I think ARAD is a stronger product, but that part of the world is more inclined to the AK style system, like SG540 to Galil ACE in Chile. In a way, it is a very interesting arrangement , like FN, where the government is almost forced to buy local for political reasons but also to show case the product for export markets. in the eyes of government, small arms are cheap expandable items so the calculus does not mind overpaying to encourage local industry and score brownie points with $ and employment creation, because in real dollar amount, even if they are overpaying by a lot, is still a small drop in the bucket compared to other bigger items. That's the reason we keep seeing many products from companies that do not make money sense ( or do not make sense at all), even if the world is still perfectly fine with cheap and plentiful M16 and AK.
 
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greentips said:
A lot of countries try to make small arms as the first step to establish local industry.

But israelis these days are better with software, AI and other things. Steels and raw materials are still imported so factories will be idle even if they are setup when the ports are blocked, and the lack of depth of that nation( which also applies to singapore) also means also so much important industrial targets could be scatter.ed The supply chain could never be independent and protected.

So using brains working on a laptop connected to the cloud in exchange for physical materials/equipment is a good move, and it is ok to be selective as to what they want to make.

If you look at what singapore did, they also ended up buying Colt instead of making their own automatic rifles. small arms are expendable items but they can also be stock pile massively in distributed locations easily. they are also highly saturated market and everyone wants to dip their toes in this as a showcase of self reliance. While it is a bit of first step for nations who just get into arms producing, dollar wise it is cheaper to stock pile massive amount of small arms from import instead of diverting resources away from more important stuff that others cannot make, in this case software and electronic stuff the Israelis are good at.

I think IWI is pretty successful in selling Galil ACE to south half of america, but X95 is a bit of a struggle. Personally I think ARAD is a stronger product, but that part of the world is more inclined to the AK style system, like SG540 to Galil ACE in Chile. In a way, it is a very interesting arrangement , like FN, where the government is almost forced to buy local for political reasons but also to show case the product for export markets. in the eyes of government, small arms are cheap expandable items so the calculus does not mind overpaying to encourage local industry and score brownies point with $ and employment creation, because in real dollar amount, even if they are overpaying by a lot, is still a small drop in the bucket compared to other bigger items. That's the reason we keep seeing many products from companies that do not make money sense ( or do not make sense at all), even if the world is still perfectly fine with cheap and plentiful M16 and AK.
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Well said. All platforms has its pros, cons and outright outclass one another. At the end of the day, if you're a #### shot, no masterclass platform can save you except aimbot.
 
PRRRoblematic said:
Well said. All platforms has its pros, cons and outright outclass one another. At the end of the day, if you're a #### shot, no masterclass platform can save you except aimbot.
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The AR is just it…even the cheap ones work amazing compared to all the way overpriced Canadian options we have had up to now…at least for price.
 
Back in the good 'ole days when we had some choice on 5.56 semi-auto's any rifle that was known to dent brass got scratched off the list by me. As a reloader I hate cases getting crunched.
I'll have to get over it as I like everything else about the Carmel...
 
The shell deflector is an hollow piece of steel bolted to the receiver.
Plastic or aluminum replacement looks doable.
 
Can-down said:
For some reason when I look at pictures of this gun i see it in my mind's eye slowly moving through space like an Imperial Destroyer in Star Wars.....

C3Ln9gj.jpeg


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Personally, it reminds me a bit of the M14A Pulse Rifle from Aliens!
 
Ustauk said:
Excellent point. Unless the Makasi has serious quality issues, the more AR like ergos will probably cause the Makasi to be favoured over the Carmel. Time will tell for sure.
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Well, new reviews on here and Reddit aren't looking so kindly on the Makasi for QC. I guess we'll have to wait and see like you say. I just hate being a guinea pig for gun manufacturers.
 
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