The most underrated catridge on the planet.

[scotteboy]

I shot the 222 for the first time yesterday.
Probably the most impressed I've been with a "new to me" cartridge.
Super accurate and snappy little number.
Might fit into this category

 

[rule .303]

Are we on the same planet? Because I see lots of people who think 223/5.56 is the king of cartridges. Just look at any black gun or AR oriented forum, in their minds it stops charging elephants and blue whales dead, is super accurate like a lazer and is amazing.
From a target shooting perspective, ya people might question its merits, but over all 223 outsells any ‘target cartridge’ by miles.
That said. About six years ago i had a 223 built, 26in stainless bull barrel, marksman style stock etc, just for the reasons you mention, cheap ammo, no recoil, easy to find ammo etc. what a bucket of poop. Cheap ammo is usually just that, and I gave up and sold that rifle after ammo issues, bullet weight issues related to twist, and accuracy issues as well. To top it off by the time I got to gongs at 300yds you couldnt hear the impact, and needed a good bench scope to track the impacts. Wind susceptibility at my then range was awful, especially at 500m+, and all that is why I went back to the boring 308, and 300wm. Much better rounds, and in a dedicated heavy target rifle the recoil isnt bad at all.
For teaching kids at 300m and less its a fair cartridge, beyond that I would give it a solid pass, and maybe try 22-250

the 223 is not cheap to shoot if you want it as a performance cartridge in fact it is very expensive .

It is if you reload, you should be doing that if you intend to shoot anything " performance".

 

[rule .303]

Are we on the same planet? Because I see lots of people who think 223/5.56 is the king of cartridges. Just look at any black gun or AR oriented forum, in their minds it stops charging elephants and blue whales dead, is super accurate like a lazer and is amazing.
From a target shooting perspective, ya people might question its merits, but over all 223 outsells any ‘target cartridge’ by miles.
That said. About six years ago i had a 223 built, 26in stainless bull barrel, marksman style stock etc, just for the reasons you mention, cheap ammo, no recoil, easy to find ammo etc. what a bucket of poop. Cheap ammo is usually just that, and I gave up and sold that rifle after ammo issues, bullet weight issues related to twist, and accuracy issues as well. To top it off by the time I got to gongs at 300yds you couldnt hear the impact, and needed a good bench scope to track the impacts. Wind susceptibility at my then range was awful, especially at 500m+, and all that is why I went back to the boring 308, and 300wm. Much better rounds, and in a dedicated heavy target rifle the recoil isnt bad at all.
For teaching kids at 300m and less its a fair cartridge, beyond that I would give it a solid pass, and maybe try 22-250

You spend all that money on a gun and just run factory ammo throgh it?

 

[Fox]

223 is one of the most overrated cartridge that exists. Not powerful enough for the military, essentially out gunned since its inception and replacements being considered constantly. Good enough for short range coyotes but nothing bigger and not long range.

For accuracy I have to agree on the 222, the grandfather of your 223, a flat base 50gr pill on varmints and slightly less cost per shot than the 223 for plinking. For deer the 6.5 CM just copied the 6.5x55, so why not use the 6.5x55 as has been for over 100 years. As for larger game, the 35 Whelen is more efficient than the 3006, 270, or any other of the 3006 case, will run a heavier bullet as the same velocity as the lighter in the 3006 case family, plus you can plink with pistol bullets and load down to 35 Rem levels for hunting deer but up to the max for hunting everything up to big African game.

For shotgun, the 16ga is the greatest gauge for universal use and for some reason has regularly been ignored, underrated for sure.

I do not think you can call one of the most popular cartridges in the world underrated.

 

[Bustercluck]

223 is one of the most overrated cartridge that exists. Not powerful enough for the military, essentially out gunned since its inception and replacements being considered constantly. Good enough for short range coyotes but nothing bigger and not long range.

For accuracy I have to agree on the 222, the grandfather of your 223, a flat base 50gr pill on varmints and slightly less cost per shot than the 223 for plinking. For deer the 6.5 CM just copied the 6.5x55, so why not use the 6.5x55 as has been for over 100 years. As for larger game, the 35 Whelen is more efficient than the 3006, 270, or any other of the 3006 case, will run a heavier bullet as the same velocity as the lighter in the 3006 case family, plus you can plink with pistol bullets and load down to 35 Rem levels for hunting deer but up to the max for hunting everything up to big African game.

For shotgun, the 16ga is the greatest gauge for universal use and for some reason has regularly been ignored, underrated for sure.

I do not think you can call one of the most popular cartridges in the world underrated.

I don’t know why people are still hung up on the 6.5 swede thing. If you’re going to compare the swede to something you should at least compare it to a cartrdige that fits the same action like the 6.5 prc.

 

[Fox]

I don’t know why people are still hung up on the 6.5 swede thing. If you’re going to compare the swede to something you should at least compare it to a cartrdige that fits the same action like the 6.5 prc.

This has nothing to do with the comparison, this is the underrated cartridge discussion. The 6.5x55 is not considered as a useful cartridge but yet the 6.5CM is considered God's gift to shooters, yet the 6.5x55 is actually better in a modern gun when you use the cartridge capacity.

The case length thing is only an issue if you have a problem cycling a long action, which I never understood, accuracy wise there is no real change and unless you need a stroke to be short for something like a lever gun it really does not matter.

The 6.5x55 being considered an old garbage military cartridge by 6.5CM fan boys is why the 6.5x55 is an underrated cartridge.

 

[Bustercluck]

This has nothing to do with the comparison, this is the underrated cartridge discussion. The 6.5x55 is not considered as a useful cartridge but yet the 6.5CM is considered God's gift to shooters, yet the 6.5x55 is actually better in a modern gun when you use the cartridge capacity.

The case length thing is only an issue if you have a problem cycling a long action, which I never understood, accuracy wise there is no real change and unless you need a stroke to be short for something like a lever gun it really does not matter.

The 6.5x55 being considered an old garbage military cartridge by 6.5CM fan boys is why the 6.5x55 is an underrated cartridge.

Idk man, this a target forum and you’re talking about capability shooting deer and coyotes. The 30-06 case will push heavy bullets fast enough to beat out the 223, but that’s fully expected. Feel free to share your bullet/speed data and we can compare bullet drop and wind deflection out to 1000 yards. You might be surprised.

For the record all of the 6.5s are great and have a place. I have a swede and I’ve had a creedmoor and I liked both of them, but my goto is a 6.5-284 these days and I would’ve happily taken a 6.5prc instead of the 6.5-284 as well. Those two just have a little more capacity for those heavy bullets.

 

[Bustercluck]

Maybe thats a good idea for another thread…

The 6.5prc is everything the creedmoor and swede aren’t…

 

[Highwind]

Maybe thats a good idea for another thread…

The 6.5prc is everything the creedmoor and swede aren’t…

Yup - I'd prefer the 6.5PRC over the creedmore and swede. If I took the 6.5 PRC - I might have to lighten the vault a bit.

 

[Highwind]

Don't get me wrong the 223 is a nice shooting rifle - but it's typically not in my wheel-house for deer. Just a small step up to a 243 then I'll think about taking it out on a deer hunt.

 

[SuperCub]

Don't get me wrong the 223 is a nice shooting rifle - but it's typically not in my wheel-house for deer. Just a small step up to a 243 then I'll think about taking it out on a deer hunt.

I wouldn't use a 223 for deer if I didn't have to.

This thread should be about the 222 instead for full FUDD satifaction.

 

[Fox]

I wouldn't use a 223 for deer if I didn't have to.

This thread should be about the 222 instead for full FUDD satifaction.

222 is the granddaddy and the most accurate of that level of centerfire rifle and it is not even close.

 

[SuperCub]

222 is the granddaddy and the most accurate of that level of centerfire rifle and it is not even close.

The 222 was the most significant cartridge rolled out since the 270. Not many overall had a bigger impact.

 

[Fox]

The 222 was the most significant cartridge rolled out since the 270. Not many overall had a bigger impact.

I would significantly more important than the 270 but that takes into account military implications too.

 

[homer76]

Speer 50gr TNT may just be the most affordable varmint/mid range bullet. Up to an 8 twist without issue and sub moa performance out to 600m (will get bounced around if going to 1000yds). mid burn ball powders like H335 to extruded like H4895 work. CCI 450 primer is rarely ever a bad choice.

There are a ton of varmint bullet options from 52 to 60'ish grs. Not really exciting to me as the ballistics/value math isn't as good as heavier or lighter choices. Now if you can find a sale on Hrn 55gr SPs and just want a plinking bullet to 600 and some laughs out to 1000yds, I would not disagree.

68gr to 75gr BTHP from hrn, sierra are a great place to be for availability, cost, decent ballistics and factory barrels. up to 8 twist without issue but will work in most factory twists except maybe the 12's and slower. Although best at mid range, these will get out to 1000yds

The 75gr Hrn ELDM in an 8 twist would be my choice as a 1 bullet close to far option cause this bullet seems to be available, well priced, mag friendly, chamber friendly, and QC seems to be decent. 1200yds is good fun... under calm conditions, it will go much further.

80 to 95gr need a 7 twist and can be great for those wanting a LR small case set up. I shot alot of Hrn 80gr Amax back in the day. Sierra and Berger make some fantastic options but bullet costs and loading fussiness may not be to everyones tastes. The rifle will also need to cater to the needs of the bullet and single feeding is typically used. My fave heavy is the 95gr Sierra MK which I toss out of a 22 Creedmoor

The most important tool if you want peak accuracy in a 223 case, quality milligram scale.

Jerry

The Speer 50 gr TNTs are phenomenal on prairie dogs. Everyone else in my group seems to think you need Hornady V-Max but the Speers are just as effective and cheaper. I aim for the lower half when they are standing and I send the top half into orbit. In the evening when the PDs are really active I have managed to get double and triple kills. I loaded up the last of my supply of WC-735 and just finished tuning up a load using H335. Everyone else prefers Varget but I think that is overly expensive for the volume that I shoot. I have no issues getting first round hits on PDs out to 300m. If I clean out an area and have to shoot further than that it's time to move closer or somewhere else.

I noticed when I was doing load development with my 1:8 26" barrel that some of my Speer TNTs were coming apart at around 3500 fps which is 315,000 rpm. I read somewhere that Speer does not recommend anything above 300,000 rpm for this bullet.

My IBI 20" .223 Wylde barrel arrived last week and it's amazing. I bought it during the last Black Friday sale and taxes and shipping included was $370. I wish I bought 2! With the shorter barrel I'm losing approximately 200 fps. The lower speed means the rpm is lower so my bullets are holding together.

I'll keep my longer barrel for a future build involving heavier, higher BC bullets for a longer distance target rifle.

 

[Mysticprecision]

That are some awesome results. If you have room for another shooter to help with the hunting, please give me a shout at mysticprecision@gmail.com

Thanks

Jerry

 

[remington jim]

here are some combos for those thinking about the 223 as an all around fun rifle for target shooting.

Speer 50gr TNT may just be the most affordable varmint/mid range bullet. Up to an 8 twist without issue and sub moa performance out to 600m (will get bounced around if going to 1000yds). mid burn ball powders like H335 to extruded like H4895 work. CCI 450 primer is rarely ever a bad choice.

There are a ton of varmint bullet options from 52 to 60'ish grs. Not really exciting to me as the ballistics/value math isn't as good as heavier or lighter choices. Now if you can find a sale on Hrn 55gr SPs and just want a plinking bullet to 600 and some laughs out to 1000yds, I would not disagree.

68gr to 75gr BTHP from hrn, sierra are a great place to be for availability, cost, decent ballistics and factory barrels. up to 8 twist without issue but will work in most factory twists except maybe the 12's and slower. Although best at mid range, these will get out to 1000yds

The 75gr Hrn ELDM in an 8 twist would be my choice as a 1 bullet close to far option cause this bullet seems to be available, well priced, mag friendly, chamber friendly, and QC seems to be decent. 1200yds is good fun... under calm conditions, it will go much further.

80 to 95gr need a 7 twist and can be great for those wanting a LR small case set up. I shot alot of Hrn 80gr Amax back in the day. Sierra and Berger make some fantastic options but bullet costs and loading fussiness may not be to everyones tastes. The rifle will also need to cater to the needs of the bullet and single feeding is typically used. My fave heavy is the 95gr Sierra MK which I toss out of a 22 Creedmoor

The most important tool if you want peak accuracy in a 223 case, quality milligram scale.

Jerry

Jerry - its is Clearly Known that you are the 223 Expert ! If you had to pick ONLY 2 powders to load 223 s with 40-75 gr bullet and a rifle with a 1-8 twist - What 2 powders would you use ? Thxs RJ

 

[Suther]

How the hell is 223 underrated? It's probably the single most consumed rifle cartridge on the civilian market!

 

[Mysticprecision]

Jerry - its is Clearly Known that you are the 223 Expert ! If you had to pick ONLY 2 powders to load 223 s with 40-75 gr bullet and a rifle with a 1-8 twist - What 2 powders would you use ? Thxs RJ

I am currently loading H4895 for 75gr ELDMs (varget would also be a good choice here)... WC735 (will switch to H335 when I run out) for the 50gr TNT for bulk shooting. I am running low on a clone of IMR8208 which I also really like for the TNT but running very low

I would never limit myself to just 2 powders.... the supply chain does enough restrictions.

The vast majority of mid burn powders were designed around the needs of a 223 so getting good performance is really just a matter of proper load work up. If you need temp stability, that limits options. If you want to make bulk on a progressive, that will also limit options.

Choose from what you can find and suits your end use goals.

Jerry

 

[New Camper]

This has nothing to do with the comparison, this is the underrated cartridge discussion. The 6.5x55 is not considered as a useful cartridge but yet the 6.5CM is considered God's gift to shooters, yet the 6.5x55 is actually better in a modern gun when you use the cartridge capacity.

The case length thing is only an issue if you have a problem cycling a long action, which I never understood, accuracy wise there is no real change and unless you need a stroke to be short for something like a lever gun it really does not matter.

The 6.5x55 being considered an old garbage military cartridge by 6.5CM fan boys is why the 6.5x55 is an underrated cartridge.

^^ this and the 222 Remington are under rated. Oddly, the 222 held an accuracy world record for over half a decade and was only marginally beaten by a guy with another under rated cartridge... 6mm BR. 10 shots at 100 or 200y into a single hole only measuring thousandths of an inch. But they all sit casting shadows over heavily marketted upstarts... and if any of those were as good as the propaganda would suggest, there should have been new records (maybe the shooters just suck though?? or a combination of both?)

I have handloaded the 6.5x55 well within pressure ratings to send 140HPBT bullets over 2800fps. The 30-06 isn't under rated, it's justifiably very common for being very practical for all NA big game: but I handloaded it likewise within pressure ratings to send 190gr SMK over 2750fps with plenty room for more velocity... I always sought about 2800fps and when I found an accurate load, didn't care if I got more. H4831 in either, and N205 in the x55 and W760 in the '06 as well. The 222 was easy to reload: fill the case with IMR4320, level it off and compress the powder with a 50gr VMAX, SP or SPSX and shoot dimes or red mist varmints... 3200fps was normal.

7mm-08 always is forgotten between the 308 and the 6.5-250 Newton-Savage Ackley Improved. It's under rated. I never got around to building a target or hunting rifle and trying some of the newer Stabil powder for the claims around it: they were boasting velocities approaching 280 Remington Express - perhaps the most suitable North American big game round to exist yet so under rated in the field and at the bench. Everything .257" gets squished between .243" and .264": the reason is just artificially created - not many bullets were ever made for long distance target shooting. But any boast of the 6.5-250 NSAI would establish the parent round above that if market provided and the #1 deer cartridge ever designed in the 250 Savage, would also double as a superb and probably most grossly under rated paper puncher to 1000y.

#1 under rated probably belongs to the 250.