The old 165gr vs 180gr .30-06 thread...

156821 said:
I found an interesting development in the saga of my latest 30-06 that may interest some here. It has a 20” pencil barrel and is on the light weight end of things. Long story short it wasn’t doing any better than 1.5 moa at best, most of the time at 2moa. An old timer I hang out with told me to try a couple 220gr round nose interlocks. Well… wouldn’t you know it, smartened the groups right up to 3/4 moa. Those bullets have no boat tail and the ogive is quite close to the tip compared to todays aerodynamic trends. Those big round nose bullets are an avenue I had never explored.
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Plus you can hunt Cape Buffalo with that... Ernest Hemingway did.

220gr .308 is one of the highest sectional density bullets there is, if you put such stock in that. Kind of an old school thing in this era of Super Premium bullets, hyper-velocity and turret scopes.

But I still like sectional density.
 
Demonical, I have no doubt you've come a long way on this learning curve. It never stops.

Some rifles were purosely built with long throats. This condition is called "freebore"

The reason for it was two fold.

One, it allowed long for caliber bullets to be loaded into the case neck so that the bullet ogive was entering the leade while the bullet base was still being held relatively true to the axis of the bore, while still in the neck of the case, assuring a straight, non canted feed.

Two, some manufacturers of ammunition and firearms used freebore to alleviate initial pressures by actually having the bullet free from the neck mouth before contacting the leade. If the throat on these rifles has a generous diameter, satisfactory accuracy can be unobtainable. Older Weatherby rifles were notorius for this sort of accuracy and many shooters either gave up on these rifles or had the shoulders of their barrels set back and the rifle chambered with a reamer that cut a shorter/tighter throat diameter.

This was also an issue with many surplus military rifles, such as the 7x57, which was originally loaded with long 175 grain bullets and the new owners wanted to shoot lighter 130-145 grain bullets.

The often generous chambers made the combo of short/light bullets and deep sloppy chambers almost impossible to shoot well.
 
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Thanks bearhunter!

I still had 5 new cases, these were not trimmed but I had loaded them already. Once I had frigged around and got a starting seating depth, I re-seated them to that length. Just for the heck of it.

Also I left them at 55.5grs H-4350, just cuz that was the last load I had tried.

Basically just got a carbon copy of the groups I've been shooting. d:h:

Now that that's out of the way, I move on to playing with the cases I prepped yesterday.

 
Never run a 180 in the 30-06
150gr in 308
165 in 30-06
180 in 300 win mag
I guess its just a matter of preference, if I want to run a 180 I want it going close to 3000fps, never found that in the 06 sized cartridge that 15gr bigger made a difference besides giving a worse trajectory.
But I guess if a guy was in thick brush and close range on bigger animals such as moose, the 180gr round nose would have some benefits
 
leeelmer said:
Never run a 180 in the 30-06
150gr in 308
165 in 30-06
180 in 300 win mag
I guess its just a matter of preference, if I want to run a 180 I want it going close to 3000fps, never found that in the 06 sized cartridge that 15gr bigger made a difference besides giving a worse trajectory.
But I guess if a guy was in thick brush and close range on bigger animals such as moose, the 180gr round nose would have some benefits
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That's advice I may very well end up at. But not just yet.:)
 
Demonical said:
Thanks bearhunter!

I still had 5 new cases, these were not trimmed but I had loaded them already. Once I had frigged around and got a starting seating depth, I re-seated them to that length. Just for the heck of it.

Also I left them at 55.5grs H-4350, just cuz that was the last load I had tried.

Basically just got a carbon copy of the groups I've been shooting. d:h:

Now that that's out of the way, I move on to playing with the cases I prepped yesterday.

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That group doesn't need more tweeking as far as load development goes.

If it weren't for ''horizontal dispersion'' that would be a MOA or slightly less group.

Your load is just fine at that node.

You have other issues happening there.

They may be rifle bedding/scope/trigger related or they may be shooter related.

Your velocities have to be pretty consistent to get such close verticals.

I don't believe it's your scope or your group would look more like a shotgun pattern.

You may need to apply more torque to the scope bases or to your rifle's action screws. If your rifle isn't properly bedded, do it.

That horizontal dispersion, if it isn't induced by the shooter, almost always comes from sloppy bedding, improper torque of screws, or barrel channel clearance.

It can also be induced by shooting habits. Maybe the stock is to long or short???

If that were my rifle/load combination, I would be looking at other things to get rid of that horizontal dispersion.
 
^ bearhunter it is possibly due to the action/bedding, yes I have thought that myself.

Reason: my stock is a Wildcat composite, and it was glass bedded by K&S Arms. But last year, I broke the action out of the stock to adjust the trigger pull on the rifle.

And holy snap! that action was like glued together! So tight!

And I've never been certain that I got the action back together the way it was, as tight as it was. There is a real possibility that I have altered the bearing surface of stock/barrel.


BUT... the one thing about that, I have been setting a video camera in front of my target, when shooting, so I have been able to monitor shot dispersion, and it's not like I shoot a tight 3 shot cluster then get fliers, which is what I'd be sure to suspect if it was the action/bedding.

I've had 'fliers' as my first shot, third shot etc... never know which one is gonna get loose on me.

So that's why I've definitely wondered about it, but definitely also confused as to is that the issue??



What would you do?

Loosen the action screws and try to tighten it back down?
 
BUT... the one thing about that, I have been setting a video camera in front of my target, when shooting, so I have been able to monitor shot dispersion, and it's not like I shoot a tight 3 shot cluster then get fliers, which is what I'd be sure to suspect if it was the action/bedding.
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Nope that just isn't realistic when it comes to messed up bedding.

The dispersion can and usually will wander from shot to shot.

The fact that it's wandering horizontally is a glaring indicator that you have a bedding issue.

The groups would be giving you the same indicator if the groups were all vertical, but that could also be shooter error and butt placement on the shoulder..

If that were my rifle, I would be scraping about fifteen thou .015 off every contact surface.

Then apply some good release agent, such as Kiwi shoe polish or a Paste wax.

Then I would use a brush to coat the area you want to bed with bedding compound to skim coat it all, especially in the recoil lug area.

Torgue the action screws to their proper setting and let the compound cure for at least 24 hours.

Remove the action from the freshly cured bedding and clean off the release agent.

Put the action back into the bedded area and torque it down to the proper setting.

Then take it to the range and shoot it again, to see if it makes a difference.

I still say that load you've got there is just fine. There are other issues causing that dispersion.

While you have the action out of the stock, put the scope against your ear and give it some hard taps with your knuckle to pick up a rattle, if there is one.

Another thing you may want to do is clamp your barrel in a padded vice and while looking through the scope, tap it again to check if the reticle is moving. You can put a stick on dot on the wall, lined up with your cross hairs and if it moves at all, it will be noticeable.

Hold your eye back, until the view is just a small center in the ocular lens to alleviate parallax which will be present at such a close distance.

There is one other very doubtful possibility that I've seen happen once.

The shooter was completely wrapping her index finger around the trigger and using the mid joint pad to pull the trigger. This cause all sorts of horizontal movement while pulling the trigger and erratic let offs.

When she started using the pad on the tip of her index finger, the groups tightend up.

She had vertical as well as horizontal in her group and this made it tough to spot, until I actually saw her shoot.
 
Right, so basically re-bed the action... hmm, definitely maybe.

The bedding job was so tight, so perfect before, just not possible to return to that, eh is what you are thinking?

That notion has been bouncing around in the back of my skull...

You know I'm gonna burn off at least a few more loads first, right?
 
Ok, decided to do the simple Canadian Tire 50 cent check, for barrel contact.

The bill passes from fore end to receiver, freely, but with just a bit of tension right at the fore end.

There is more tension on the right side barrel-fore end.

I don't honestly remember what the fit was before I broke the stock out to adjust the trigger?

I have a couple notions as to where to go with this, but we'll see...











 
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Awesome info Bearhunter, appreciate you taking the time to talk Demonical through this! so much to learn its almost conufising ay D..... ha ha!

once you get ya head around this, youl make all rifles shoot acceptable .


So my Ruger 35 whelen shoots horizontals...... but the Stock is split between trigger an mag, the forened touches badly.. an its hardly bedded............ theres my issues but i dont use it so i cbf with it.

BH info makes sense an coincides with your Right side foreend touch...i believe?
 
bearhunter said:
BUT... the one thing about that, I have been setting a video camera in front of my target, when shooting, so I have been able to monitor shot dispersion, and it's not like I shoot a tight 3 shot cluster then get fliers, which is what I'd be sure to suspect if it was the action/bedding.
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Nope that just isn't realistic when it comes to messed up bedding.

The dispersion can and usually will wander from shot to shot.

The fact that it's wandering horizontally is a glaring indicator that you have a bedding issue.

The groups would be giving you the same indicator if the groups were all vertical, but that could also be shooter error and butt placement on the shoulder..

If that were my rifle, I would be scraping about fifteen thou .015 off every contact surface.

Then apply some good release agent, such as Kiwi shoe polish or a Paste wax.

Then I would use a brush to coat the area you want to bed with bedding compound to skim coat it all, especially in the recoil lug area.

Torgue the action screws to their proper setting and let the compound cure for at least 24 hours.

Remove the action from the freshly cured bedding and clean off the release agent.

Put the action back into the bedded area and torque it down to the proper setting.

Then take it to the range and shoot it again, to see if it makes a difference.

I still say that load you've got there is just fine. There are other issues causing that dispersion.

While you have the action out of the stock, put the scope against your ear and give it some hard taps with your knuckle to pick up a rattle, if there is one.

Another thing you may want to do is clamp your barrel in a padded vice and while looking through the scope, tap it again to check if the reticle is moving. You can put a stick on dot on the wall, lined up with your cross hairs and if it moves at all, it will be noticeable.

Hold your eye back, until the view is just a small center in the ocular lens to alleviate parallax which will be present at such a close distance.

There is one other very doubtful possibility that I've seen happen once.

The shooter was completely wrapping her index finger around the trigger and using the mid joint pad to pull the trigger. This cause all sorts of horizontal movement while pulling the trigger and erratic let offs.

When she started using the pad on the tip of her index finger, the groups tightend up.

She had vertical as well as horizontal in her group and this made it tough to spot, until I actually saw her shoot.
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BH do you believe a Barrel tuner would aid in this situation or not so much?

in the past on my pencil kimber, i wrapped Duct Tape around the barrel end to act as a harmonizer? or to mes with the whip in the barrel.......... it SEEMED to work for that particular load and bullet comb.? the proper alt is buying a rubber band to slide up or down the tube.

bedding properly like Demonical mentions he may, is properly the better fix--

Demonical, for ####s an giggles... wrap some elec tape 1cm from muzzle, do maybe, 3 or 4 wraps at first........... shoot ya group :)
 
an i realised why u have low velocity.................. its the boat tail............ if it were flat base OOMPH its a piston.... :D
the velocity is pushing past the boat tail :D
anyway, lazy saturday arvo here, camped out last night in the pine forest with 2 fellas chasen fallow, no cigars.
 
I was tied up watching The Masters and the Blue Jays games, haha.

Anyway fellas, in my case I think bearhunter is correct about the bedding being the factor, and it had been in the back of my mind.

When I checked it, I found there was definitely different pressure on the barrel, like clearly more on one side than the other.

Today I loosened the action screws, then what I did was attempt to align the action better then retorque the action screws.

It remains to be seen if what I did will work, but there seems to be no stress points now on the barrel. The 'dollar' bill slides freely all the way to the receiver.


Here's a question though: I've got this idea to get some medium emory cloth, cut a strip, slide it up into the barrel channel, with the grit against the stock.
Then work it to sand the inside of the channel, just to ease that up, open up a bit more tolerance.

Anybody ever do that kinda thing? I'm sure it would work.
 
i just took five mins to shoot that load of 180s i made, with Varget........ im not guna lie... it didnt kick near as much as i thought!
an apart from my first one, (i might of closed my eyes )

i produced this at 80m ........ im happy there for a good starter!

tknbR2a.jpg
 
Demonical said:
I was tied up watching The Masters and the Blue Jays games, haha.

Anyway fellas, in my case I think bearhunter is correct about the bedding being the factor, and it had been in the back of my mind.

When I checked it, I found there was definitely different pressure on the barrel, like clearly more on one side than the other.

Today I loosened the action screws, then what I did was attempt to align the action better then retorque the action screws.

It remains to be seen if what I did will work, but there seems to be no stress points now on the barrel. The 'dollar' bill slides freely all the way to the receiver.


Here's a question though: I've got this idea to get some medium emory cloth, cut a strip, slide it up into the barrel channel, with the grit against the stock.
Then work it to sand the inside of the channel, just to ease that up, open up a bit more tolerance.

Anybody ever do that kinda thing? I'm sure it would work.
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Yes, work good for plastics
 
Before I do anything else I will shoot the rifle to see if the small adjustment I made to the action, makes a difference. Very small tweak, but might make huge change.

BUT... I'm stuck in the recliner for 2 days, watching The Masters.:popCorn:
 
yeah nice one, that sounds like a good plan stan.

i worked out my velocity to be about 2500 fps............ slowww, hence the nice recoil ay.

i took a sambar hind at 15 meters with the 150gr woodleighs this morning, her hide caugt the projectile too.
 
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