The old SMGs - did they fail often?

bayonet lug for a FN bayo as opposed to the Brit's retention of the jungle carbine bayonet for the sterling

Stencollector: Please explain further.

Not being familiar with the Brit Sterling, do I read from your above quotation that the Brits used a No 5 bayo
but not affixed to a lug?

Reason I'm confused is that the blade of the FN bayo and the No 5 bayo are exactly the same.

What am I missing?
 
Please guys, the correct term for a C1 SMG was C1, not Sterling. The Brits may have called it that but to the CF a C1 SMG was a just that. One GREAT book I recommend on rhe Sten of all there MKs, models and various places of manufactur is The Sten Machine Carbine by Peter Laidler. Even if you do not own a Sten nor ever will the book is a fine addition to the shelf.
 
Rule 303 said:
bayonet lug for a FN bayo as opposed to the Brit's retention of the jungle carbine bayonet for the sterling

Stencollector: Please explain further.

Not being familiar with the Brit Sterling, do I read from your above quotation that the Brits used a No 5 bayo
but not affixed to a lug?

Reason I'm confused is that the blade of the FN bayo and the No 5 bayo are exactly the same.

What am I missing?
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The blade was a pretty standard British design.....there were no4 bayonets, jungle carbine bayonets, and FN bayonets, all with the same blade. The ring and handles were different between all of them however.

The front of the British gun was machined, and by offsetting the front piece in a lathe, the protrusion was made for the bayonet. Because the FN bayonet was substantially smaller, and not offset from the blade as far, this method of manufacture would not work to adopt a FN bayonet.

The Canadian SMG utilized stamped pieces wherever possible, and they would be spot welded to the gun. Because of this method, we could use the FN bayonet. According to Peter Laidler (the fellow who wrote the book on the Sterling) the UK were considering adopting the Canadian method for bayonet attachment in order to utilize the FN type, although this never happened.

Note that the retention of the jungle carbine bayonet for the sterling was the reason that the carbine bayonets were so rare for so many years back when the jungle carbines flooded the markets. I recall being able to buy nearly mint jungle carbines at SIR foe $125, but the bayonets were running $250 back in those days. With the eventual release of the sterling/jungle carbine bayonets in the late 90s, the prices finally came down a fair bit, although have climbed back up again somewhat.
 
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there is also a British No8 bayonet , looks the same as a No5 but has a small ring.these were made by Pool in 1946 . it was for the SLR rifle . have one here somewhere. as for the C1 smg I used lots of them ,never any problems with live ammo . the blanks were sometime underpowered causing stoppages.
 
That's a beautiful thing, Navy! Thanks for posting the pics.

That's a very different Sten than most of the pictures I've seen (single long rod stock, metal plate with a hole cut in it as the "grippy part" :)
 
Two safeties on the STEN
1. the safety notch with the bolt in the rear position
2. There was latere a mod using a longer cocking handle that went into a hole in the side of the reciever with the bolt in the forward position.
I did read about one soldier who was killed jumping out of a truck with the bolt in the forward position and a full maqgazine. Inertia allowed the bolt to travel back far enough to pick up a round. ONLY ONE round fired, but that was enough.
WHY you would carry a sten with a loaded mag inserted when you were just being transported is the mystery!
 
Now the Mk3 Sten was the only submachine gun that was dropped from production during the war. A case of taking simplification one step too far. (Barrels had the nasty habit of falling out!)
Got my STEN from Canada (parts kit) and built it up here when we could still do that. Part of the reciever is an exhaust pipe from Midas Muffler:)
Got lucky and picked up a bronze bolt from a friend for 5 bucks. Just looks neat when polished, but I also have the original steel one as well
 
The ND with a C1 SMG happened during the FLQ crisis, soldier had placed mag in C1, jumps from back of truck, bolt traveled far enough rearward but not far enough to be caught by sear and held back. Bolt is then driven forward by spring where it strips round off mag, chambers and fires. Soldier died from self inflicted wound.
 
5440fight said:
The pure simplicity of the gun is what amazes me. It's amazing it works. I think, it is the eternal smg, as it will always be the design turned out of basement factories in times of trouble. Fence pipe, springs, a little machining, a home made barrel... the mag looks like the tricky part...and voila!: one smg.

http://w ww.milsurps.com/content.php?r=422-Blueprints-for-The-STEN-MKII-(complete-machine-plans)

Easier to make than anything but a single shot shotgun.
I can imagine it would be a little depressing to be issued one in war though. "Seriously, the other unit gets Thompsons, and we get these things? Did we do something wrong? It's the drinking, isn't it?"
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Could of been a lee Enfield that was converted to full auto they were known for breaking but they wanted more machine guns on the field and it was cheap to convert. They just weld the bolt and add some exteranal springs and tada a gun that dumps 10 rounds at a time no control at all just pull the trigger and send 10 down range.
 
can14 said:
Lever Arm's sold some semi-auto purpose built long barrel sterling's at one time along with the Armalite AR180 223's also made by sterling. .
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Lever Arm's Sterling had the name Lever Arm engraved on the receiver & came without the bayonet lug.
 
Does anyone have a good clear photoset of a Canadian C1 SMG? I'd love to study the pics. Almost all Sterling pics I've seen were of Brit models.

AFAIK they were made at Canadian Arsenals?
 
the easiest and best way to carry a sten for such a purpose would have been to load the mag, #### it, and isert the mag just before firing, i doubt anyone knows exactly what way it was carried, but i would bet the issue was the mag, not a cocking issue as shown
 
joe n said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WifCpHvNlp8
What happened here around 3:43?
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You mean besides the terrible cinematography, painful soundtrack, woefully inaccurate historical research and poor acting in this reenactment ?

Oh that's easy:

"The Sten gun used in the attack still exists: after the fall of Communism it turned up in the archives of the security service, where it had apparently been left during the departure of the Gestapo in 1945. The Sten was returned to UK, and is now in the Army weapons collection at Warminster.

Contrary to many accounts, the Sten did not jam when it was fired. What had happened was that Gabcik had removed the Sten's butt to make it more concealable, not realising that the butt was necessary to retain the main bolt spring (it was lightly held in by a small metal cap). The first shot popped the main spring out of the back of the gun, rendering it inoperable (in the Gestapo photos of the scene, the Sten is seen lying on the ground with the spring hanging out). This incident led UK to produce the Sten "pistol grip" - ie a grip without the shoulder struts - that was then included with Stens dropped to resistance groups in Europe. "
 
HaHa49 at posting #50, if I follow what your thinking that a LE 303 could be made into a unlocked open bolt gun I believe your wrong. SMG (Small Metal Guns) fire a pistol round for good reason and still rely on API to do so safely. I have been told that a 7.62mm NATO round firing unlocked and open bolt would need a 23 pound bolt to fire safely (this from a very knowledgeable CF gun plumber). My CA MkII has a E&Co (Elkington and Co) stamped mag house and came with a MkIII stepped barrel, Bill C10A sucks big time.
 
XRCD011 said:
HaHa49 at posting #50, if I follow what your thinking that a LE 303 could be made into a unlocked open bolt gun I believe your wrong. SMG (Small Metal Guns) fire a pistol round for good reason and still rely on API to do so safely. I have been told that a 7.62mm NATO round firing unlocked and open bolt would need a 23 pound bolt to fire safely (this from a very knowledgeable CF gun plumber). My CA MkII has a E&Co (Elkington and Co) stamped mag house and came with a MkIII stepped barrel, Bill C10A sucks big time.
Click to expand...

the unlocked straight blowback system is used on 20mm orlicon guns, its a big bolt and a really big spring, and sterling made a few lever delayed 7.62 nato light machineguns based on the sterling
 
While its doable it just does not come across as practical. An unlocked, open bolt gun with API was for the most part pistol calibre. No doubt there are all sorts of trial and proof of concept guns made and studied using all manner of calibres and mechanisms.
 
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