Note that some of the new short mags need considerably more breech pressure to achieve the same velocity as their older counterparts. If you shoot at targets much, the shortened barrel life will more than counter any mostly academic accuracy advantage from the shorter fatter cartridge.
The reality of the new Magnums!
- Thread starter BIGREDD
- Start date
grouch said:
This is another of the more common misconceptions propogated by the magnum haters.... and it is simply not true!
The new short mags operate at the very close, the same or lower pressures than their belted magnum counterparts!
This false idea has come about because chamber pressure is now measured using PSI (pounds per square inch) and the older cartridges use CUP (copper units of Pressure). And they are not interchangeable and are definitely not the same!
In order to properly compare chamber pressures between the two you need to do some math and use a formula to correlate them... if you have any doubts just read the link below.
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
In fact the Short magnums are more accurate, more efficient, and have just as long or longer a barrel life as their belted magnum counterparts.
Nothing Academic about it.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I agree with this to a point. Let's consider a .30 caliber bullet.
In a hunting scenario I do not believe that a .30 caliber bullet gains much advantage once pushed beyond 2800 FPS. High velocity may result in bullet failure unless pains are taken to choose a premium bullet for the task. I try to keep my shots on big game to within 300 yards, and since I do not hunt with a laser range finder, estimating range can become problematic, although I can do alright with a map and compass when pressed. Therefore, given my style of hunting, a .30-378 has little advantage over a .30-06, and would have several disadvantages which preclude me from investing in one. However, if I wanted to shoot heavy for caliber bullets, such as the Woodleigh 240 gr, a .300 Ultra or .30-378 will push this bullet to 2800, and would work beautifully, if I didn't already have a .375 Ultra.
In a hunting scenario I do not believe that a .30 caliber bullet gains much advantage once pushed beyond 2800 FPS. High velocity may result in bullet failure unless pains are taken to choose a premium bullet for the task. I try to keep my shots on big game to within 300 yards, and since I do not hunt with a laser range finder, estimating range can become problematic, although I can do alright with a map and compass when pressed. Therefore, given my style of hunting, a .30-378 has little advantage over a .30-06, and would have several disadvantages which preclude me from investing in one. However, if I wanted to shoot heavy for caliber bullets, such as the Woodleigh 240 gr, a .300 Ultra or .30-378 will push this bullet to 2800, and would work beautifully, if I didn't already have a .375 Ultra.
Good point Boomer.
Flip side... Non-magnums stand the risk of bullets not performing at the other end of the velocity/range spectrum... and most hunters like yourself who own magnums understand what type of bullet they need for the game and the range. And the magnums are more capable of putting the said bullet (regardless of construction) out there farther, flatter and with more energy and more consistent placement (accuracy).
Flip side... Non-magnums stand the risk of bullets not performing at the other end of the velocity/range spectrum... and most hunters like yourself who own magnums understand what type of bullet they need for the game and the range. And the magnums are more capable of putting the said bullet (regardless of construction) out there farther, flatter and with more energy and more consistent placement (accuracy).
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Flatter trajectory and more energy on the target, are important advantages of magnum rifles. Accuracy though, is a result of, among other things, consistency of ammunition, and minimal tolerances within a rifle barrel, rather than a cartridge's capacity. Generally speaking, small cartridges are easier to make accurate, but a small cartridge, the 6 PPC for example, might not be a good choice for big game.
But there are things that can help the marksman shoot a hunting rifle well, and the experienced hunter or rifleman endeavors to have these features implemented in his hunting rifle. A stock that fits does not make the rifle more accurate, but it certainly makes it easier to shoot the rifle accurately. A good trigger does not make the rifle more accurate, yet the marksman is more accurate with one. A good scope makes it easier to engage a target, but again does not make the rifle more accurate.
So it is with high velocity. A magnum cartridge is not necessarily more accurate, but high velocity simplifies the problem for the marksman who is concerned about hold over or come-ups at long range.
But there are things that can help the marksman shoot a hunting rifle well, and the experienced hunter or rifleman endeavors to have these features implemented in his hunting rifle. A stock that fits does not make the rifle more accurate, but it certainly makes it easier to shoot the rifle accurately. A good trigger does not make the rifle more accurate, yet the marksman is more accurate with one. A good scope makes it easier to engage a target, but again does not make the rifle more accurate.
So it is with high velocity. A magnum cartridge is not necessarily more accurate, but high velocity simplifies the problem for the marksman who is concerned about hold over or come-ups at long range.
I nominate BigRed for head preist of the church of all things magnum. certainly preaches enough.
the point of this thread? besides regurgitation of about 50 previous threads on the same subject over the last year?
the point of this thread? besides regurgitation of about 50 previous threads on the same subject over the last year?
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- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
new magnums
The reality is that the new magnums offer a marginal velocity difference in the field and no advantage in real hunting distances. The WSM brand sells rifles and magazine sales go up.Meanwhile the hunting public gets brainwashed into believing that you need a WSSSSSSSM cartridge to cleanly harvest a certain species of game that has been taken for 150 years before some guy necked down a .404 Jeffery case.
The reality is that the new magnums offer a marginal velocity difference in the field and no advantage in real hunting distances. The WSM brand sells rifles and magazine sales go up.Meanwhile the hunting public gets brainwashed into believing that you need a WSSSSSSSM cartridge to cleanly harvest a certain species of game that has been taken for 150 years before some guy necked down a .404 Jeffery case.
what i can't figure out is why all these people who bash wsm's, saum's, and mag's, aren't on their knees thanking god for their development.
when someone decides to buy a new gun in one of these calibers, what do they do with their old gun....
they sell it, and probably at a loss, which works out good for the guys who are more than happy with their diehard calibers.
it all works out for everybody, and seems like a win-win situation, no?
when someone decides to buy a new gun in one of these calibers, what do they do with their old gun....
they sell it, and probably at a loss, which works out good for the guys who are more than happy with their diehard calibers.
it all works out for everybody, and seems like a win-win situation, no?
- Location
- Prince George
I like the wsm calibers for the simple fact of shorter bolt throw, I have a win mdl 70 in 270wsm and love it. it is perhaps the finest gun I have ever owned, and what is even funnier it is the smallest caliber hunting rifle I have ever owned. all the rest of my guns are .338 or bigger.....
but you know what I took hunting this year for moose, elk and deer..... the 270wsm. I am quicker on the bolt throw, more accurate with it and it is just a plain delight to shoot. I put 150 rnds thru it at the range even before hunting with it.
but you know what I took hunting this year for moose, elk and deer..... the 270wsm. I am quicker on the bolt throw, more accurate with it and it is just a plain delight to shoot. I put 150 rnds thru it at the range even before hunting with it.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
I like 'em just because!
Make no mistake, I have lots of different caliiers and cartrdiges in lots of different actions.
I like to wildcat, and the new cases are making new wildcat options as opposed to old ones.
better? Doubt it very much.
Fun? YOU BET!!
Cat
Make no mistake, I have lots of different caliiers and cartrdiges in lots of different actions.
I like to wildcat, and the new cases are making new wildcat options as opposed to old ones.
better? Doubt it very much.
Fun? YOU BET!!
Cat
I have a Remington Sendero in 338 RUM with a Leupold VXIII 4.5-14X50 LR with B&C reticle on top of Ken Farrell rings and one piece base that I bought mainly to shoot and hunt with a bit. I had about 230 rounds through this rifle before I hunted with it this year, it worked awesome on my moose at a short 242 yard range and was rather devistating on the 3 mule deer does at approximately the same distance. I am a hunter but I am a shooter first so for 10 months of the years I am just a shooter. I find that a lot of people are afraid of the larger magnums and therefore feel that they must try to convince others that there is no point in owning them or that there is something wrong with people that shoot them. Kind of strange but most people that have tried my 338 RUM liked it and have been impressed by it's power and accuracy.
Blah Blah Blah...
A deer or elk or moose can be killed by many cartridges, both new and old.
For some reason, a segment of the hunitng community has decided that new cartridges are BAD and that anyone who buys one is a victim of marketing hype, period.
NEWSFLASH:
it is just a CARTRIDGE. it makes bullets go fast!
I am not an idiot, I know what a 300WM can do, and what a 30-06 and 300WSM can do. Why? because I have owned and hanloaded for all of them. If your basic requirement is an affordable cartridge that is easy to use to kill out to 350 yards, then buy a 30-06.
If you want somehtin different, that does not make you a victim of marketing hype, it just means you want somethign different. it really doesn't matter if most of your shots are at 100 yards, where a 30-30 woudl wrk fine. Use what *YOU* like..
People that get worked up and pissed off about new cartridges just look foolish. I dont care if you use your trusty thurty odd six, so why do you care if somene wants to use a different cartridge?
A deer or elk or moose can be killed by many cartridges, both new and old.
For some reason, a segment of the hunitng community has decided that new cartridges are BAD and that anyone who buys one is a victim of marketing hype, period.
NEWSFLASH:
it is just a CARTRIDGE. it makes bullets go fast!
I am not an idiot, I know what a 300WM can do, and what a 30-06 and 300WSM can do. Why? because I have owned and hanloaded for all of them. If your basic requirement is an affordable cartridge that is easy to use to kill out to 350 yards, then buy a 30-06.
If you want somehtin different, that does not make you a victim of marketing hype, it just means you want somethign different. it really doesn't matter if most of your shots are at 100 yards, where a 30-30 woudl wrk fine. Use what *YOU* like..
People that get worked up and pissed off about new cartridges just look foolish. I dont care if you use your trusty thurty odd six, so why do you care if somene wants to use a different cartridge?
gunrunner100
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- NW Ontario
Why are people getting worked up over this? The purported "dilemma" is not going to be resolved on this forum. We all have an opinion on long mags versus short mags and calling people different things is not going to make your opinion any more accurate than the next person's. Get over it. An animal shot by a 270 Winchester Short Magnum doesn't give a rat's ass.
Amphibious said:
Thanks for the nomination Phib it is very gratifying to know that I am foremost in your thoughts.
The truth is that this is a very hot topic with hunters and has been every since Roy Weatherby created his magnums. It is the single most controversial topic in this forum and the magnum bashing threads are a regular occurrence.
I am certainly not going to apologize for posting an opinion worthy of debate. And the fact that you are the only one to post childish drivel in another feeble attempt to drag the thread off-side is indicative of your contributions overall.
I could give a rats ass what anyone shoots... and I certainly am not preaching that anyone needs a magnum. Anyone who reads my posts knows that I don't hate any caliber or firearm, nor do I dismiss (seriously) anyone's choice simply because I don't agree with it. (Buckshot on deer excepted!)
I am simply arguing that magnum bashing is pretty damn stupid and there is no logical reason to blame magnums for wounded animals, unethical hunters, hunting accidents, or any of the myriad of foolish reasons to criticize them.
How about this... make an intelligent argument or don't respond to the thread ... your constant sniping only detracts from the debate.
I hope you have a Merry Christmas Phib!
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
Re-inventing the wheel can be useful to some people, so it is with rifle cartridges.
If by using a .300 WSM you can get .300 Winchester performance out of a light carbine, rather than a 9 pound rifle, is that not a worthy endevour?
Nicely said BigRedd, Its a a good topic for a bull session & probably will never be answered to everones satisfaction. I personally own both magnums, new & old and non-magnums. I wouldn't be here wasting my time Christmas Day talking about cartridges if I wasn't gun nutz... that & the fact I'm stuck at work & it's kinda slow right now. So I hope everyone at home is with friends & family having a Merry Christmas.
