The Ross Straightpull Rifle M-1905 and M-1910

Drachenblut

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Hello,

I have been considering saving to buy a Ross rifle, but though I have read some information about them, I would love to learn more of this tool of our heritage!

I understand the M-5 and M-10 were different quite radically, and that one had serious issues. Which one was issued to our troops in the Great War? Which one had sealing issues (boltface etc)? I understand these rifles were extremely pron to mudjamming compared to the Enfield, or is that just a bunch of hooie like the No.5 Mk.I "wandering Zero"

Thank you,
Drachenblut
 
I can help a bit with some of your questions with others here that are significantly more knowledgeable sure to jump in as well. I only own a Mk II, but am also planning on getting a Mk III (stay tuned)

First, the military Ross rifles are more accurately described as the Mk II (1905) and the Mk III (1910). This will help differentiate them from the commercial/sporter Ross rifles. There was also a Mk I, but let's leave that alone for now.

The two rifles are quite different in design - though both are straight-pull. The Mk II can be quickly identified by its "Harris platform" paddle lifter and internal magazine, while the Mk III has an external magazine.

The Mk II came in at least five different variations. By and large, though, it was the Mk III that went to war with the Canadian Expeditionary Force, to be replaced by the SMLE. As for the complaints about performance (dangerous, jamming, etc.) much of the concern has been overblown.

That's just a once-over. More to follow from others no doubt. A search on Ross rifle on this board should bring up lots of photos and descriptions to show the differences between the two models.
 
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Yes, friend, DO search this forum. There was a thread on here that went more than a year, all on the ins and the outs and the ups and the downs of the Ross Rifle.

Mark I was also called the 1903. If anything, it was a pilot model, had a lot of problems and was superceded very early. NONE saw combat in the Great War or any other.

Mark II was based on the 1905 Ross patents. It had an internal magazine, most of them with the Harris Attachment for "dump loading" the mag, they all carried 5 rounds. Sporters WERE made in several calibres, but are very scarce. Amongst other things, the 1905 was the test-bed for the .28 Ross cartridge, later developed into the world-famous .280 Ross.
The 1905 action was VERY strong, being rated at 100,000 psi of pressure. In many ways, it was a straight-pull adaptation of a Mauser, has the same heavy forward locking lugs., but they are larger and thicker on the Ross. The bolt travels with the lugs in a VERTICAL position and they lock in a HORIZONTAL position. This means that there is a fair jump from the magazine to the chamber and the final action largely was developed in the way it was to get rid of this problem. The 1905 in its special Match version was supplied to many rifle clubs across Canada and they still turn up to this day, complete with aperture rear sights and a 30-inch heavy barrel. Unfortunately, time, Cordite and corrosive primers, as well as LOTS of range time, have taken their toll on many of these wonderful barrels. The 1905 developed a reputation as the most accurate military rifle in the world, and that's pretty hard to argue with.
It is ALMOST impossible to assemble a 1905 bolt so that it will operate in a dangerous condition but it can be done if you are determined to kill yourself. Likely, however, the bolt will not even move back and forth in the rifle IF you can get it in at all.

And now we come to the 1910 model, the ill-starred Mark III which was, if anything, even STRONGER than the Mark II (1905). Ross actually tried one at 125,000 psi pressure and it held together!!!!! There was actually a case reported in The American Rifleman a number of years ago of a 1910 Ross in .280 Ross being fired with a .303 cartridge. The .303 obturated correctly and brazed itself into the chamber, pressure wrecked the extractor.... and the bullet was squeezed from .312" diameter, all the way down to .285" diameter and, apart from the extractor, there was no damage to the rifle. I won't even fathom a GUESS as to what the pressure levels might have been. Hatcher, however, has photos of a P-17 (and they were TOUGH!) which was spread all over the rifle-range by the firing of a .35 Remington in the .30-06 chamber: a very similar amount of squeezing being required. Under circumstances approaching sanity, I would think it very nearly impossible to wreck a 1910 Ross.
With the 1910 (Mark III), the bolt-lugs travelled horizontally and locked vertically. This did away with any feed problems and made for a MUCH smoother action. The seven-lug bolt was tremendously strong and the accuracy still is legendary. Unlike most legends, though, the accuracy of the Mark III Ross is PROVABLE any time you care to take one out and try it.

But there is a downside, of course. The rifle was long, heavy and unwieldy. It was not popular with the troops. The tales of the miserable performance in battle are emphatically NOT borne out by men I spoke with personally, men who actually used the rifles in some of the worst battles of the War.... and this INCLUDES the gas attack at Second Ypres. The tale of the removal of the Ross from combat duty, I am convinced, largely was political in nature: done to get rid of Sir Sam Hughes, who may have been erratic but who also was utterly incorruptable.

And here is the nasty part. The bolt of the 1910 is VERY easy to assemble in a dangerous condition. In fact, the easiest way to assemble one is to assemble it dangerously and then make the correction. It can NOT get out of adjustment by itself: it REQUIRES HUMAN INTERVENTION to make it dangerous. Some rifles doubtless were assembled wrong and a few disasters resulted. The Army came up with a modification to the bolt, entailing modifications to the shank of the rotating bolt-head and the assembly of a cross-pin through the shank of the bolt-sleeve. These are called "pinned" Rosses. A pinned Ross is impossible to assemble incorrectly; indeed, it is difficult to assemble at all. But it is totally safe.

Recoil with the 1910 is minimal; they are a heavy rifle and the .303 isn't all that terrible a kicker to start with. They all have these utterly wonderful Ross roller-bearing triggers which, for my money, are as good as any match trigger made today. They have 4-groove Mauser-type (wide grooves, narrow lands) rifling, 1 turn right in 10 inches and they are SUPERBLY accurate. I have one here that regularly touches its bullets at 100 yards.

Combat service: a few Mark II rifles may have seen combat in the Great War. 15 B'n CEF went overseas with them but it is not clear if they still had the Mark II when they first saw combat. Everybody else had the Mark III.

The 1910 action, essentially, is a self-cleaning action. What defeated them was the sheer quantity of mud in the Great War trenches. Sir Sam wanted to give the men "sticks" to clean their rifles and was berated and mocked widely for such a comment. Indeed, this is one of the statements commonly used to "prove" the "insanity" of Sir Sam Hughes. What he was talking about was the Ross "Cleaning Stick", made of hardwood and specially shaped for cleaning the locking-recesses of the Mark III rifle. They sold for 5 cents each but the Borden Government refused to spend the money.

The Ross is as Canadian as beaver soup or whatever. Designed by a Scot, made on the Plains of Abraham by a bunch of French-Canadians. It doesn't GET any more Canadian than that!

I could go on for HOURS about the Ross, but there is no point. You have your mind made up and I DO wish you well.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of the Ross Rifle!
 
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Welcome to the Wonderful World of the Ross Rifle!

Agreed, and thanks Smellie for clarifying my mis-speak about bolt assembly being easy. What I meant to say/should have said was that I understand re-insertion of a mis-assembled bolt is not simple. Regardless, the cautions about checking bolt assembly carefully are worthy of repeating. I will now go back and edit my original reply to avoid giving anyone the wrong idea.
 
Hello, and Smellie, RangeRover, many many thanks for the info. It seems I would be wanting either a Mk.II or MK.III, and leaning more towards the MK.III, 1910 Ross. What do these usually sell for in military config - matching, military config - non matching, sporter condition? Do they have bedding issues similar to SMLE's? Lastly... anyone want to sell me one in the next while for a really reasonable price being I'm fresh out of college? :)
 
Hello, and Smellie, RangeRover, many many thanks for the info. It seems I would be wanting either a Mk.II or MK.III, and leaning more towards the MK.III, 1910 Ross. What do these usually sell for in military config - matching, military config - non matching, sporter condition? Do they have bedding issues similar to SMLE's? Lastly... anyone want to sell me one in the next while for a really reasonable price being I'm fresh out of college? :)

There's a steady stream of sporterized Mk III rifles on the EE, from $150 on up. You can't afford an uncut one...;)
 
Note that $150 has the barrel cut - sseveral people will tell you that their MKIII with M-10 stamped on the reciever is a "factory barrel" because the original front sight is on it.... it isn't. Make sure you get them to measure the barrel length from the muzzle to the front of the reciever.

For MKIII rosses:
Cut down and unrefurbishable guns go for $150+.
Cut down refurbishable guns go for $200-$300
Repaired spliced guns go for $800
Full wood originals will cost you a kidney and a first born.

Don't worry about the jamming or the exploding.

The jamming came from really burying the gun in muck. Unless you want to do a torture test on it, it will be fine.

The exploding came from MKIII's that were reassembled wrong. If you make sure the bolt head is rotating properly after being reassembled you'll be fine. Many bolts have a pin in them for this exact reason. Not a big worry though.
 
The Ross is as Canadian as beaver soup or whatever. Designed by a Scot, made on the Plains of Abraham by a bunch of French-Canadians. It doesn't GET any more Canadian than that!


And here is a view of the factory...demolished in the early 30s...some of the machinery was used at the Long Branch factory...my grand father worked at the Ross factory...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/PICT4926.jpg

The round tower on the left in the foreground is a Martello tower, it is still there today...the former location of the factory is now where the city underground water reservoir is located...
 
And here is a view of the factory...demolished in the early 30s...some of the machinery was used at the Long Branch factory...my grand father worked at the Ross factory...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/PICT4926.jpg

The round tower on the left in the foreground is a Martello tower, it is still there today...the former location of the factory is now where the city underground water reservoir is located...

They used to make ammo there too. From small caliber to artillery shells. There even was a test firing range on site. Right in the middle of the city! Different times...
 
I have been considering saving to buy a Ross rifle, but though I have read some information about them, I would love to learn more of this tool of our heritage!

There's a 1905 Mk II***** (5 star) Ross Riflehttp://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=8 in the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10, with an associated detailed 96 pic virtual tour.

There's also a 1916 M10 Mk. III Ross Rifle (Marked to 16th Battalion C.E.F.)http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4

Although not a military version, here's one of the most prized Ross rifles in my personal collection. I picked it up three years ago at the Orangeville Gun Show. The wood work and bluing are still remarkable, even after all these years. Someone took good care of it for a long time before I got hold of her.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)


1905 Ross Mk II** Civilian Target Rifle ..... (lots more detailed pics ... click here)http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/canadianservicerifles/1905rossmkiitargetrifle

If you're not sure you'll be really focusing on the Ross to collect and want to spend a lot less than $100 for some basic information, there's a small publication available for $11.25 you can look for:

CANADA ROSS RIFLES MILITARY & SPORTING VERSIONS (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=125

If you order on-line, make sure you ask for your member's 5% discount...

You can also usually find this book at gun shows, so you might want to check them as well.

I found it useful when I was initially interested in the Ross, but when I got more serious, I bought The Ross Rifle Story.

Finally, in case you decide you ever want to start taking the bolt itself apart, you might want to read and save this for future reference... :)

There's an outstanding article by "PerversPépère", on Ross M-10 Rifle Bolt Disassembly (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=12 and the dangers of doing it incorrectly. It may be found under the Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25 forum of the Milsurp Knowledge Libraries.

Regards,
Badger
 
Ross Rifles

The information Smellie gave you, you can take it to the bank. He eats, breathes and sleeps ROSS. There is even a rumor that where Superman has a big S for a logo, George has a R tatooed on his chest. However no one has seen it, because it is hidden behind a lush growth known as a beard.

There are a couple of things I will mention here. In the Mark III (1910) action that has been pinned to prevent improper assembly, in over 50 years of gun collecting, I have come across two examples where the pin has been broken off and one where the pin had been removed.

Also, back in the late 70's, there was an individual in the Edmonton area who refurbished sporterized Ross rifles and sold them as original. He cut the wood and spliced it so that the cut was hidden by the barrel band.

The Ross still shows up at Gun Shows, and sometimes for a reasonable price. I bought a .280 Sporter about 5 years ago for $75, (almost as good a deal as my .256 Newton for $25), and as mentioned, keep checking the EE section of Gunnutz. Also, if you are on good terms with a local Gun Shop owner, mention that you are interested in a good Ross at a reasonable price. He might know of one, or someone might drag one through the door for trade.
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They used to make ammo there too. From small caliber to artillery shells. There even was a test firing range on site. Right in the middle of the city! Different times...

Indeed they made ammo for the longest time in Québec City...''Parc de l'Artillerie'' still exist today, in the heart of the town, turn left immediately after entering the walled city through the St Jean Gate...Parc Canada has a museum there where the evolution of this military/industrial complex is open to the public.
As for a range in the middle of town, here is an interesting picture I got from a book on the Ross...The Martello tower was used as a backstop...so I went there a couple of years ago and found what I believe would be the bullet impact marks on the stone wall....note the water tower on top of the 'versatile' Martello tower...
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/PICT4925.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/PICT4927.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/PICT4926.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/PICT3998.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/jacques1952/21-Ross-Rifle_000.jpg
 
buffdog, that is a VERY good point about local gun shops, and one that I should have made.

In the last couple of years, I have picked up a pair of nice Bubba sporters (I suspect cut down in the early 1950s, as quite a few were) at the shop 50 miles from here. No point in you going there: I got 'em ALL.

Well, there were only the two, but they also know to keep any Rosses for me. Because of the terrible publicity these things got, they have very little resale value. I have a grand total of $135 invested in the two rifles, and one of them has a very nice bore.

Friend Drachenblut is really "into" carbines. I know that there WAS a Carbine variant of the 1910 Ross, but I believe that only 1 or 2 were ever built, same as the Infantry Rifle with the 26-inch barrel, which SHOULD have been the version accepted. I really don't think anyone would cry TOO awfully much if Drachenblut were to build a Carbine out of one of the many Bubba rifles wandering around with 22-inch barrels.

About 10 years ago, Dwight and I entered the Two-Man Iron Sight shoot at Shilo with a pair of Rosses, one being my HMS CANADA rifle (which is completely original, a very early 1910), the other being an almost-completely-unstocked Bubba with an UNCUT barrel. We shot against everything from FALs to Minimis and C7s that day, Number 4s, M-14s, at least one M-21. You name it and it was there. We were the only team to use two bolt rifles and we actually scored better than a team with a C7 and a Minimi, mostly because our targets were going DOWN and the little .223s just made a noise. After the shoot, there was a great deal of interest shown in our rifles. I just said, "That's the rifle that the Army wouldn't let your grandfather use." At the end of the day, we stood 10th place among 23 teams. It was a miserable showing, to be honest, but we were happy with it. At least, it got the Ross a little more respect, and that's why we did it. If I remember correctly, I think friend STENCOLLECTOR was there that day; if so, I am sure he will confirm this.

AND the old things are FUN.

And that's why we're all here, isn't it?
 
Great story Smellie!


buffdog, that is a VERY good point about local gun shops, and one that I should have made.

In the last couple of years, I have picked up a pair of nice Bubba sporters (I suspect cut down in the early 1950s, as quite a few were) at the shop 50 miles from here. No point in you going there: I got 'em ALL.

Well, there were only the two, but they also know to keep any Rosses for me. Because of the terrible publicity these things got, they have very little resale value. I have a grand total of $135 invested in the two rifles, and one of them has a very nice bore.

Friend Drachenblut is really "into" carbines. I know that there WAS a Carbine variant of the 1910 Ross, but I believe that only 1 or 2 were ever built, same as the Infantry Rifle with the 26-inch barrel, which SHOULD have been the version accepted. I really don't think anyone would cry TOO awfully much if Drachenblut were to build a Carbine out of one of the many Bubba rifles wandering around with 22-inch barrels.

About 10 years ago, Dwight and I entered the Two-Man Iron Sight shoot at Shilo with a pair of Rosses, one being my HMS CANADA rifle (which is completely original, a very early 1910), the other being an almost-completely-unstocked Bubba with an UNCUT barrel. We shot against everything from FALs to Minimis and C7s that day, Number 4s, M-14s, at least one M-21. You name it and it was there. We were the only team to use two bolt rifles and we actually scored better than a team with a C7 and a Minimi, mostly because our targets were going DOWN and the little .223s just made a noise. After the shoot, there was a great deal of interest shown in our rifles. I just said, "That's the rifle that the Army wouldn't let your grandfather use." At the end of the day, we stood 10th place among 23 teams. It was a miserable showing, to be honest, but we were happy with it. At least, it got the Ross a little more respect, and that's why we did it. If I remember correctly, I think friend STENCOLLECTOR was there that day; if so, I am sure he will confirm this.

AND the old things are FUN.

And that's why we're all here, isn't it?
 
snip...
With the 1910 (Mark III), the bolt-lugs travelled horizontally and locked vertically. This did away with any feed problems and made for a MUCH smoother action. The seven-lug bolt was tremendously strong and the accuracy still is legendary.
I agree, except for the heat treating problem of the bolt heads. I've seen bolt heads which were worn thru 1 to all 7 of the lugs from the ejector/bolt stop.
snip...
The tale of the removal of the Ross from combat duty, I am convinced, largely was political in nature: done to get rid of Sir Sam Hughes, who may have been erratic but who also was utterly incorruptable.
See my comment above about the bolt heads. It was such a problem that they were sent replacement bolt heads to be fitted in Europe. I don't think that it was political in nature to help remove S.Sam...He pretty much guaranteed his own removal on his own...
...snip...
The 1910 action, essentially, is a self-cleaning action. What defeated them was the sheer quantity of mud in the Great War trenches. Sir Sam wanted to give the men "sticks" to clean their rifles and was berated and mocked widely for such a comment. Indeed, this is one of the statements commonly used to "prove" the "insanity" of Sir Sam Hughes. What he was talking about was the Ross "Cleaning Stick", made of hardwood and specially shaped for cleaning the locking-recesses of the Mark III rifle. They sold for 5 cents each but the Borden Government refused to spend the money.
...snip...
Again, I don't think that it was entirely the mud. "A Question of Confidence" has been an excellent resource about the chamber drawing and various other issues associated with the 1910 Ross. "A Rifleman went to War" speaks of the "rate of fire" shoots that he was involved with before embarking to England.

I've owned 3 1910 Ross service rifles in .303, they have demonstrated a few things to me about some of the issues which existed in service.

The first one was a full wood rifle showing signs of having been left in the UK after WWI ~ "Not English Make" stamped on the knox form of the barrel ect. This rifle exhibited the start of cracking and light deformation of the left rear lug. The action is not very smooth.

The second was a minty "home guard" rifle which showed no signs of wear or deformation. Quite smooth of action~ (I wish I still had this one).

The third is a "sported" stock rifle. This one is very smooth (impressed the crap out of me). Experimentally I dropped this bolt into the first rifle, ah-ha, the problem is the (very light) bolt head deformation of the first bolt has resulted in enough drag to make the rifle a dog.

With iffy brass and mud, combined with the pressure of fearing for your life, I can see how guys jumping on the bolt handle to open their rifle could damage the bolt lug sooner resulting in a jammed up gun, or at the very least a gun which was "sticky" on the extraction cycle
 
The Ross still shows up at Gun Shows, and sometimes for a reasonable price. I bought a .280 Sporter about 5 years ago for $75, (almost as good a deal as my .256 Newton for $25), and as mentioned, keep checking the EE section of Gunnutz. Also, if you are on good terms with a local Gun Shop owner, mention that you are interested in a good Ross at a reasonable price. He might know of one, or someone might drag one through the door for trade.
.

You should have bought a lottery ticket. The last nice Ross .280's I've seen sell were a very nice one that was D&T'd that I bought for $1100 and a completely original nice one my friend bought for $2000. They are NOT inexpensive rifles when the seller knows what he/she has.
 
From what I've read, the issue was actually the bolt stop. It was too thin and not hard enough on some variate of the MkIII. It tended to peen and ultimately start to deform the bolt lug that stopped against it. This was identified and corrected, but too late - the Ross' reputation had already been ruined. There was also a HUGE Brit lobby to convince the Canadians to adopt the SMLE for financial, political, logistical and prejudicial reasons (damned Colonials should tow the line!).

Makes me think of a saying I hear all the time working with the forces... "why buy the best when you can buy British?"
 
There's a lot else wrong with it - fragile, overly elaborate sight, over-engineered magazine when a plain zig-zag spring would have done better, much too long, lack of extracting power inherent in design ...
 
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