The T97 Thread!

[Clobbersauras]

I’ve wanted to do a Norinco Type 97 Faq for a while now. I hope people find it informative. Sorry in advance for the crappy pics.

First some stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-95

Variants(other pics to be added as I get them):
Type 97A (Restricted): 18 inch Barrel (pic by RobAK)

Type 97A Shorty (Restricted) 12.5 inch barrel, 1:7 Twist

Type 97A (Non-restricted) 18.7 inch barrel (475mm)– as imported by Canada Ammo

Caliber: 5.56 x 45

From the Manual:
• Service life of the rifle is 6000 rounds. I find this to be much underestimated and others have shot T97's with more than 20,000 rounds through them.
• The rifle is designed to feed 5.56x45 ss109 ammo but may fire 5.56x45 m193. (I feed mine a steady diet of American Eagle .223 55g)
• Rear sight is calibrated for 1,3,400 yards.
• Rate of Fire: 40 rounds per minute.

Disassembly:

Please note the following is for informational purposes only. Please refer to your manual for complete instructions. Always practice safe firearm handling procedures and ensure the rifle is unloaded before disassembly.

Press the but pin from left to right while holding the but pad (otherwise the but pad will shoot across the room). The safety has to be on position “1” or you cant disassemble the rifle.

Pull the but assembly away from the action (that funky looking lever thingy is a recoil dampening device...cool):

Remove the striker assembly and action spring.

Pull the bolt carrier out of the rifle.

To remove the bolt from the bolt carrier pull it forward on the carrier:

Rotate it down:And pull it out:

To clean the striker pull back on the spring and remove the retainer disk, everything then just pulls apart. Gently scrub any build up and lightly oil.

Reassemble in reverse.

I don’t think it’s possible to remove the firing pin without risking damaging the retaining pins. I clean it religiously and blow it out with compressed air. With almost 1000 rounds of dirty bird ammo I’ve had no doubles and it flops around freely.

To remove the piston: Depress the button on the front sight post (for the shorty it is different than the longer version)

and rotate the Gas regulator all the way counter clockwise past setting two.

Pull out the regulator:

Next tip the rifle forward and give it a shake: The piston should pop out slightly. Pull it out (note this sequence will be different for the longer barrel version – I’m not sure how much different)

Remove the Gas booster: Push backwards on the booster button.

While pushing on the button unscrew the booster cover and remove it from the rifle (Note it gets very dirty, you have to scrub it with a wire brush to get it clean)

Next remove the lower hand guard assembly. Push the lower assembly pin from left to right. This one is much harder to push (it’s also not captive like the but pin so be careful not to lose it).

Pull the lower hand guard down:

Then push it forward off the retaining hooks:

You can now see the trigger bar. You can now remove the upper charging handle/optics shroud if you do not have a rail attached. You simply pull it back and up off the rail. If optics are attached you won’t be able to remove it but it’s not really necessary.

To remove the Firing unit you have to remove the safety.

and push the opposite side of the safety assembly from right to left.

Push backwards on the trigger bar to slide the firing unit to the rear of the receiver:

Disengage the trigger bar from the firing unit and pull it free
[
You can now pull the trigger bar out of the rifle. It’s now totally field stripped.



Reassembly:
To reassemble you pretty much follow the reverse order: Some tricky parts to remember though:
Insert the trigger bar first then reattach the firing control unit to the trigger bar. Slide them forward but make sure the sears engage properly.
To reattach the bottom hand guard assembly slide the bottom end of the assembly into place first. Then slide the unit forward. Then pull the bottom assembly down slightly and push backwards on the unit engaging the front hooks. Then slide the back of the unit up so that the trigger bar reengages with the trigger. If you do it in any other way than this the trigger won’t engage with the bar and you will end up cursing the T97 and anyone else who walks near you.

To reinsert the safety press down on the firing mechanism catch and wiggle the safety into place. It took me a few tries. Reassemble the rest of the rifle in the reverse order and dry fire it a few time to ensure you have everything put back together right:

Pic of the cleaning kit stored in the pistol grip (photo by RobAK)

Questions:
Can I mount optics to the T97?
Yes! The Type 97 comes with a non-standard optics rail though, which makes mounting optics a little more difficult:

There are a few sources of scope mount adaptors that convert the rail to a standard picatinny. Real Sword Airsoft makes one and Canada Ammo will have one available for those that pre-order their rife. You can’t use iron sights with these mounts. A "see through" scope mount will be available soon, see my signature line below for more info.
Real Sword mount:

"See Through" scope mount (not anodized yet)

I recommend the lowest optic you can find to keep your cheek weld reasonable. I use an Aimpoint micro:

I’ve also used a Bushnell Red dot with ultra low rings and it worked well, with a similar cheek weld to the aimpoint:

Is the barrel removable?
Yes probably, as it is pinned. But I wouldn’t advise it.

Will standard AR15 Mags work?
Yes most will. I use Bravo Company, RRA 10 rounders, and the mags supplied with the rifle. Of note is that the Norinco mags reportedly won’t work in other AR’s. Also, I’ve heard reports the Magpull P-Mags and Thermold mags won’t fit in the T97, though I’ve yet to try any:

Can I mount a flashlight?
Yes. I found an offset picatinny mount that works great. It mounts low to the picatinny optics rail and doesn’t obscure the optic at all. It also doesn’t interfere with the charging handle.

Is it easy to mount a sling?
The Shorty only has one mount point at the but. It works well with a single point bungee I have. The regular T97 has a front sling point as well.

Can I fire the Type 97 left handed?
I wouldn't try it myself but it can be done. The Type 97 was designed for right handed use only and the ejection port is on the right side of the rifle. The ejection port is located fairly far forward and the rifle ejects spent shells forward right at about 2 O'clock. CGN menber NEMO posted this video proving you can shoot it left handed:
View My Video
CGN member DECKARD is also working on a shell deflector made out of Kydex so that lefty's can use the rifle more comfortably.

A size comparison pic posted by NEMO comparing PS90, Swiss Arms CQB, and Type 97A shorty.

[/QUOTE]
Here's an exploded view of the regular length T97A (taken by Jack Brock)

Random Pics (Thanks Deckard)
Grenade Launcher!

[/QUOTE]

Some interesting video's from Youtube regarding the development of the Type 95 (older brother of the 97)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIMqvU0mnpY&feature=PlayList&p=75FE68590AB09199&playnext=1&index=86
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIMqvU0mnpY&feature=PlayList&p=75FE68590AB09199&playnext=1&index=86
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIMqvU0mnpY&feature=PlayList&p=75FE68590AB09199&playnext=1&index=86
Cheers,

 

[Dr.Lector]

I heard that they were discontinuing use of the 97... could the weak reciever design be a reason why?

In the last 25 years, the Chinese designed and tested
over 30 service rifles that are variations of 11 main platforms.
It appears that what they change their mind like women
about what they give to their own troops.

I said that the receiver appears to be the weakest link
(in any design, some component has to be the first to fail).
But I do not necessarily consider the receiver to be straight garbage.




This is what I meant when I said that receiver is the weakest link.

The rails of Type 97 are aluminum, machined into the receiver.
They are used to guide the bolt carrier and the striker.
Also, the bolt uses the left rail
for alignment and indexing during cycling.
All these are made of steel but the rails are aluminum.


Sure, some may argue
that there are semi auto aluminum receivers out there
that withstand a large amount of rounds without wearing out,
which is true.
However, receivers like, say, 10/22 or Ar15 upper
use a different design to guide the bolt or bolt carrier
and most important they have no rails.
Well, Type 97 has.



Regarding how long the T97 receiver may last,
I’m not going to bite that question


Bolt carrier, main recoil spring, bolt, striker.

These are brand new receivers, never fired.

The bolt carrier on the rails.

The striker.

The striker on the rails.

Cocked:

Fired:

Bolt riding the left rail for indexing:

I will post pictures with Deckard later on

 

[RobAK]

Finally, what's the distance form the edge of the butt plate to the trigger? Looks like a long distance to me.

About 15" from where the shoulder meets the buttplate:

 

[Dr.Lector]

Happy New Year Lectar!

Happy New Year to you too, bro, and to everybody in here!!!






Here are some older pix that I found.

 

[Polyshot]

And here's what every Type 97A owners want....... a cantilever mount!

Looks like this operator have a hard time to aim with his EOTech lol

 

[cmdjing]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I know this doesn't get the RCMP to be any more reasonable but for the curious, the type 95"A2" variant as it were has been seen in service with the PLA with some minor changes.

Immediate visible changes are.

1) Front sight is altered now with two small mounts for accessories.

2) Five evenly spaced cooling holes as opposed to the original six (in three pairs).

3) Front grip design has been slightly angled to likely improve grip.

4) Trigger guard changed to more traditional design, the original mini vertical grip is gone from the standard type 95 and is more similar to export variants (though a little different still).

5) Carrying handle has been reinforced.

6) Fire selector/safety has been moved from original rearward position to trigger area.

7) Trigger been slightly altered aesthetically speaking. No longer angled upwards to meet fore grip.

8) Magazine release altered.

9) Cheek rest area slightly elevated, improving cheek weld when using optics. (Clobbersaurus' recommendation of low sitting sights seems to have been taken to heart!)

10) Oh and the barrel may or may not have been changed to fire the heavier 77 grain 5.8mm projectile as standard as opposed to the 64.

All in all, several small well due changes to improve the type 95 assault rifle. My one disappointment is that carrying handle was not just replaced entirely with a rail and the fore grip as well instead of two tiny little attachment points below the front sight. No big loss as the PLA doesn't use U.S./Nato mounting systems nor can it afford to arm all it's infantry with ACOGs, but still it would have been nice to have. Save possible export customers the trouble of having to mount awkward third party rail attachments.

Oh and happy Chinese New Year everyone.

 

[pavmentsurfer]

T97 VS Tavor thread... I own both and have pics of both.

There are bound to be many people considering this question. Big price difference but what are the REAL life differences? Is it worth spending or saving $2000? Im no expert, but I can compare them side by side so lets see what we see.

Ive got about 750 rounds through my Tavor now. I removed the additional trigger return spring to lighten up the trigger pull and installed a Vortex Viper PST 1-4X24 in an RRA mount and I love it. Only other upgrade/additions are a Streamlight TLR-1 and modified the originally non functional pressure switch to be functional with a pressure switch underneath and a Battlecomp 1.5. The gun is a bit heavy but doesnt feel it when its shouldered. Its well balanced. Trigger is heavy but breaks crisp and every functional element of the gun works flawlessly EXCEPT for the lack of an actual bolt hold open lever. It has a bolt hold open and bolt release... but to lock the bolt open manually is just a silly process. Its the ONLY thing I think IWI missed on this gun.





The T97 arrived today. I started by stripping the gun completely and spraying every part down with brakclean, then a liberal soaking with G96 gun treatment. Then I wiped off the excess and re-assembled it. First "pre-firing" impressions are excellent. The gun is solid, everything fits great and disassembles and assembles extremely easily. Im amazed at how light and smooth it cocks... its just buttery. Trigger pull is VERY light but is NOT crisp. There is no indication its going to break... its just light, then breaks and its hard to know when its going to happen.
The mag release is ridiculous. Its on the wrong side for starters. You have to flex your hand around and operate it with your finger. Which is awkward. Its definitely something you can learn, but its not intuitive.
The magwel isnt tapered well so inserting a mag quickly without looking is not easy... at least not as easy as you may be used to with other AR magwells. However, the mags seem to slide in well and do lock in tight. Gen 3 Pmags are a definite NO GO at all... they dont even come close to fitting into the magwell... at all. So dont bother. LAR mags fit great.
The safety is just stupid. Its way at the back of the gun and is a very thin dial that has to be rotated 180 degrees. Its hard to grip and hard to operate without moving the gun off your shoulder. Definitely a HUGE drawback for any kind of competition. Hopefully someone will come up with an aftermarket upgrade for this part that AT LEAST makes it easier to grip.
I find holding the gun to be quite comfortable. Your hand positions are very intuitive and comfortable. If your going to use the iron sights youll find the cheek weld to be decent. If you plan to use an optic youll find its very high (no surprise). Ive added the CanAm optics rail, which mounts up VERY easily, and a Bushnell First Strike micro reflex sight. Its a nice little optic that costs less than $100 (refurbished). It sits pretty low on the rail but is still not low enough to make up for the VERY high handle and rail.
My final comment is the lack of a bolt release. Seems like something that could easily have been included. Releasing the bolt with the charge handle isnt a huge deal but because its hidden under the handle you HAVE to hit it with your hand inside the handle. You cant just hit it like with an SKS or VZ-58 or something like that. Small issue and, like the mag release, its something im sure can be adapted to completely.

I havent had a chance to shoot the gun yet. Hopefully tomorrow. Overall im VERY happy with this gun so far. You have to keep reminding yourself its 1/3 the price of the Tavor. Is it worth saving the money VS the Tavor? Ill know more tomorrow.







So, between the 2 guns my first impressions are these.

The Tavor feels better built, but not by a HUGE margin. Ergonomically the Tavor is definitely better. It has more useable functions (bolt release, non reciprocating charge handle, useable safety, ergonomic mag release, proper optics mounting rail) but it doesnt necessarily FIT better on your shoulder. Once the gun is charged and the safety is off the T97 may not be so hard to run.

Build quality and internal fitment of parts seem to be quite equal. Everything just fits on both guns. The T97 IS easier to disassemble. It requires NO tools to completely strip down to the barreled action. The Tavor needs a few screwdrivers and getting the barrel off needs a special wrench. I would say the T97 actually has a tighter feel when charging. The Tavor feels a bit disconnected. Perhaps thats due to the non reciprocating charge handle, not sure. But the T97 charges really positively.

The Tavor is slightly heavier the way I have it setup. The optic is definitely heavier than the one on the T97 and im sure thats part of it. Its not an issue, but its interesting to note. Both are almost exactly the same size. I was expecting the T97 to be longer... but its not.

Here are 2 pictures comparing the two guns. Tomorrow ill shoot both back to back and post up my impressions after firing them.

 

[eos]

 

[Epoxy7]

T97 review for those not wanting to go through 30+ pages.

T97 is made in China. It just got real.

 

[pavmentsurfer]

Another comparison pic of the 2 guns at the range:



Here are some pics of the bolt/bolt carriers from both guns: (T97 top, Tavor bottom)






Here are some shots of the T97's gas selector. You have to push in the notched metal lever (push it toward the carry handle) and turn the paddle. When your disassembling the gun, this is also how you remove the piston and spring.



(NOTE: That is NOT rust in the pictures... its just a weird flash reflection from my camera)

 

[pavmentsurfer]

New pics.

I had this idea to use a cheek riser from a Magpul CTS stock to get a bit better cheek weld. I thought perhaps I could cut a few slots in the rear cover and have it snap on just like it does on the CTR... but after looking at it, it wont work that way. So I decided to get a bit more old school.





I wish I could say it was more custom but its just held on with velcro. Its tight, doesnt wiggle and isnt going to fall off. Time will tell how it holds up but I can say this, cheek weld is improved at least %75... I can actually use my cheek on the riser and see right through the sight. Plus, its completely removable, no modifications to the gun at all.

 

[snipz]

can someone take pictures of the sights, front rear or both in the same time?
are all the riding area metal?
chromed barrel?

 

[CanadianReich]

Norinco Type 97 Review by The Hunting Gear Guy on September 24, 2013 in Rifle Reviews

www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle-reviews/norinco-type-97-review/

The Norinco T97 (or Type 97) has been a 4 year process. Canada Ammo originally attempted to import them in bulk, but was stymied by a very late process RCMP review that found it was too easily converted to fully automatic. A renewed effort by North Sylva redesigned the trigger mechanism to eliminate this issue and they were successful in getting an FRT for their redesigned T97NSR and are importing the rifles into Canada at a roughly $1000 price point as of September, 2013. Now that the wait is finally over, how’s the rifle? There are a pile of photos below, so if you want to know about a particular piece of the rifle, check out the gallery below.

Norinco Type 97 NSR Specs:

Non restricted class in Canada
Chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO (also good for .223 Remington)
STANAG standard magazines (same as AR15)
Comes with a kinda crappy 5/30 magazine. Big, ugly rivets on both front and back.
Some users (myself included) have issues fitting PMAGs and other non-GI style magazines.
Fit my 10 round LAR-15 mags, though not drop-free until I modified the magwell.
Inconvenient magazine release placement on the magwell.
19″ barrel with muzzle brake, though Canada Ammo’s model claims 18.7″ barrel. In any case, more than the 18.5″ necessary to make the rifle non-restricted.
Bullpup layout resulting in a compact overall length
Bolt holds open on empty mag. Need to use charging handle to release once you’ve got a fresh mag in.
Carry handle with integrated iron sights
Proprietary Chinese optics rail.
Optics rails are now available from SFRC ($100), Canada Ammo ($50), and there’s an airsoft rail ($25) out there as well.
Short stroke gas system with rotating bolt.
3 position gas system. (0, 1, and 2 gas setting)
Weight: 3.9kg (8.6lbs)
Trigger pull: 4-5 lbs (light, but a bit mushy and long)
Safety near the buttpad
Cleaning kit included in pistol grip.
3/4″ sling loops
Muzzlebrake/flash suppressor is pinned.
Overall Quality

Overall, surprisingly good. Unlike the Norinco M14, there are no sharp edges, and the metal and plastic all feel military quality. This feels like a gun that you could throw behind the bench seat in a pickup truck and you wouldn’t think twice about it. With a purpose of being a rough and tumble ranch rifle, it’d be the ticket. Everything that is Canadian-friendly feels a bit hodge-podge on usability.

Shooting the T97NSR

Had a range session with another buddy that has a T97, and we’re back with some feedback:

The iron sights suck. I don’t mind peep sights, but these are not round, small, and I found my eyes straining quickly. It grouped alright close in, but at 100 yards I was all over the place. I’ll take the blame on this one.
Adjusting the sights for height is easy due to the included height adjustment tool, but adjusting for windage is much more difficult, because you have to drift the front sight pin over.
Even with a low profile red dot on the accessory rail, a cheek rest of some kind is required unless you’re happy with a “chin weld”. I’m not.
Due to the short overall length, the end of the barrel will rest well inside of many covered shooting positions and makes this rifle sound pretty loud and mean.
The magwell is not well enough relieved from the factory. I gave my magwell a bit of a bevel, while my other buddy did not. It was much more touchy to seat a magazine in his rifle than mine.
I experienced 1 failure in 100 rounds; a round that hit the breech nose first and collapsed the bullet inside the case (and sprayed unfired gunpowder everywhere). I may polish my feedramp as a precautionary measure.
Don’t bother with a front bipod. Most of the weight is on the rear right hand and the front is easily stabilized by your left hand. Fired prone, the rifle is very steady and fired offhand, it’s better than non-bullpups.
On a sling, the rifle is amazing. It’s compact, the flat sides make for easy carry, and the sling points allow for a ton of different carry options. That all said, good luck finding a 3/4″ sling.
The trigger is alright! It’s long, but light and clean.
Usability

With a sling either over the shoulder or carried diagonally over the shoulder and head, the rifle feels fantastic. Those ugly flat surfaces carry evenly on your back and feel great compared to a pokey bolt action rifle or all-angles Norinco M14, and the short OAL of the rifle means that you’re not going to be snagging the barrel on many trees. The magwell and everything they’ve done to make it Canada-friendly is not as great. The mag release is pretty ####: it’s a small button on the wrong side of the magwell. I think a bit of engineering could have resulted in a friendly ambi mag release mechanism that would have been easier to use. The safety is wayyyy back on the left side of the buttstock and is pretty inconvenient. The sling swivels are tiny little 3/4″ deals without enough room for many popular hooks to grab on. The sight radius is pretty small. Scoping the rifle means it’s sitting pretty high over the bore axis. I’ve found that charging the T97 is not fantastically quick as the charging handle only allows a single finger to grab onto it. In short, usability is not up to contemporary military rifles.

Disassembling the Norinco T97

Disassembling the T97 is very easy. (see the images below in the gallery for a better idea)

Pop out the rear takedown pin.
Remove the rear butt, striker assembly, bolt carrier, bolt, carry handle.
Pop out the mid-way pin.
Remove the plastic piece with the grip and trigger.
Twist the gas adjustment to horizontal and remove it.
Remove the gas piston and spring.
Press down on the safety retaining leaf spring, pull safety selector out. Remove sear assembly and trigger bar from rear.
I had a chance to film the disassembly, so take a peek below:

[youtube]WOUHdIDpKD8[/youtube]

I had higher hopes for the T97 being as easy to disassemble as the AR15, but it’s not. The bolt comes out of the bolt carrier a bit easier, but overall accessibility is better in the AR15 line of rifles. The striker assembly of the T97 is a bit simpler/easier to break down than the buried trigger assembly on an AR15. That all said, my 16″ AR15 rifle is much longer than my non-restricted 18.5″ T97, even with the telescopic stock all the way in. The bullpup design requires a bit more complexity, but gives you a much more compact rifle to carry.

Conclusion

Ultra reliable, decent build quality, extremely compact, ugly like a glock, awful ergonomics, needs better optics options, incredible price.


PHOTOS

lots more photos, click on link.......too tedious to link them all here.

 

[adriel]

ATI cheekrest. Still waiting on my sight rail, but this looks like a winner.

 

[t_102]

* Try at your own risk *

I decided to take the risk for all of you and went ahead with my file and sand paper.

1st mod is for making feeding more reliable. Especially for when the magazine is tilted down in the magwell, which would cause the round to ram into the flat part under the feed ramp and cause a jam.

How: Simply take a small round file and make your feed ram just like the M4 extension.

Try tilting front downwards your magazine with dummy rounds to see how far you need to go. I only needed to go about 1/16 to make it work, but I went 1/8 anyways to ensure there's room for error.

2nd mod is to make magazine fit or even drop free, especially Pmags.

How: Take a flat file or sand paper glued on a flat wood stick, start filing away metal at the part that is shiny shown in the picture.

This ridge is usually too tight and seems to be catching onto the rear ridge of Pmags. File it away slightly and Pmags will begin to fit perfectly. Go further and it'll start dropping free. Always visually check your fitments of pmags after every slight "go", we don't want an expensive paper weight. Also be careful of the file hitting the bolt catch, I used a file that fits between the bolt catch and the ridge wall.

 

[Dsiwy]

Sticky in the works

 

[TDC]

Quick question/request from T97 owners. Could someone measure the sight radius for me??

Thanks,

TDC

 

[Silverback]

I got to shoot a T97 today that belonged to another shooter at our range, overall it wasn't that bad to shoot. The sights are a bit crude, I found the front post to be a bit wide and the trigger had what I would describe as a marshmallow pull to it, it was quite spongy then just went off. Other than that it functioned perfectly with the RRA pistol mag the owner had and he ran quite a few mags through it while I was there. The mag that he let me shoot I fired standing off hand at a target on the 25 yard board with the iron sights and it grouped pretty good considering I had never shot one before and the bullpup configuration felt kind of strange at first.

 

[lpsia1989@hotmail.com]

Dear Sir, I have query regarding the removal of the flash hider. When you removed the pin from the flash hider, does it fall out from the muzzle. Kindly provide description on how to removed the flash hider from the muzzle. Appreciate for your support. Thanks and regards.

 

[lpsia1989@hotmail.com]

Dear Sir,
A query on the flash hider. I would like to know how to removed the flash hider. Mine when I pulled out the pin under the flash hider it did not come out. Kindly provide some details. Appreciate for your support. Thanks and regards.