The TAVOR

mikasan said:
Can anyone comment on the claim that a 20" pe-90 would out perform the Tavor at 300m if both rifles were fitted with the same optics and the same 62gr. ammo. Overheard a salesman in local gun shop telling a potential green special buyer that the swissarms would "kick the Tavor's ass!" Not a deal-breaker for me obviously, the Tavor just has too much going for it. I'm just curious if anyone would care to speculate on the veracity of that claim.

Cheers,

James
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You should've asked the salesperson where he got to shoot a Tavor and PE-90 together on a 300m range.

Let me guess: he's got some PE-90 in stock (or a very responsive supply line) but he can't say when he'll have a Tavor in stock. He's just pulling stuff out of his ass to make a sale. That's what salespeople do.

Very few people can compare the Tavor with anything in Canada with any amount of credibility and I doubt any of them could say either rifle would "kick the other's ass".
 
In the Hand of a disciplines shooter, Ass kicking will take places, other wise the salesman just blow hot air out of his Ass. I agree with Gimli, unless you actually have both of the rifles at hand side by side with the same set up and ammo, then you could make that claim, otherwise, just hot air!....

Gb
 
I'd think that the shooter would be far more important than the rifle at 300 meters. After all, these are semi-auto-only versions of actual service rifles, and the range in question is well within "service considitons" range. Anyone that shoots that discipline will tell you that the shooter is far more important than the rifle.

If you put them in mechanical rests or on good sandbags, one may prove to be more accurate than the other...but who really cares as long as they both shoot more accurately than you do?

If you want to buy a really, really accurate rifle, buy a bolt action. If you want a rifle that's more accurate than you are from the standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone unsupported positions, then I'd wager that they'll both do the job just fine.

Oh...and Airborn_69 is right. Salespeople tend to talk up whatever they have available to sell as opposed to what they don't have.
 
At 300 metres target shooting I would think the PE-90 would be better than the Tavor. This type of rifle also lends itself more to longer distance shooting than the Tavor. Which isn't surprising considering that's practically the national sport in Switzerland, and they use their service rifles in competition. CQB on the other hand is where the Tavor would shine.

It would be interesting to see how accurate the Tavor is. I know you could use the PE-90 for varminting, since it's accurate enough. I don't know if you can say the same about the Tavor. Plus the Tavor wasn't really designed for that anyways. I guess we'll know more when the Tavor starts being delivered.

The 300 metre test target that came with my PE-90 rifle was pretty darn good.

PE-90factorytarget2.jpg
 
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w squared said:
I'd think that the shooter would be far more important than the rifle at 300 meters. After all, these are semi-auto-only versions of actual service rifles, and the range in question is well within "service considitons" range. Anyone that shoots that discipline will tell you that the shooter is far more important than the rifle.
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I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement.
As to the Sig kicking the Tavor's ass on the 300m line...while he is probably blowing hot air, the sales guy is also likely right....I'll let everyone know when and if one lands in Calgary for a trial....
 
The salesman's comment was a response to his potential customer saying he wanted a non-restricted (out to 300m) rifle and was trying to decide between the pe-90 and the tavor. Guess which one the salesman had laying on the counter in front of him. ;)

I am very familiar with the retail mantra "Sell what you own"... so I strongly suspected he was just making a pitch (talking out his ass). I just couldn't think of any reason (with my limited knowledge of both platforms) why the pe-90 would stomp the tavor in long range performance.

Thanks for the input guys... as mentioned before, I know I picked the right rifle for me... there won't be many times when I'm shooting out to 300m; but when that is the case, with the right optics I'm sure the Tavor will be more accurate than I will be.

James
 
Well look at the different designs. Tavor -urban combat, QCB, tight spaces. Hence the need for a short firearm. That's why they went with a bullpup.

Swiss arms -rolling hills and country side. People's militia in guerilla warfare. Integral bipod to be fired prone at long distance targets.

I think you have your answer. Different firearms for different purposes.
 
nickorette said:
Well look at the different designs. Tavor -urban combat, QCB, tight spaces. Hence the need for a short firearm. That's why they went with a bullpup.

Swiss arms -rolling hills and country side. People's militia in guerilla warfare. Integral bipod to be fired prone at long distance targets.

I think you have your answer. Different firearms for different purposes.
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I don't see it that way at all. The Tavor w/4x, MARS & even the M21 answers both of what you said vs the PE-90 would only answer one, unless you get the CQB version which would only answer, the other one.
 
Airborn 69,
The Swiss have a traditon of 300 meter target shooting. When they aren't making watches and chocolate, this is one of their favourite past times (Sorry for the stereotype, I couldn't resist). They compete with service rifles. The rifle is essentially designed for 300 meter target shooting. They like their accuracy. The PE-90 rifle is also machined like a fine watch. It's pretty amazing. The fantastic machining and attention to detail lead this rifle to be exceptionally accurate for a service rifle. The disadvantages are of course weight, size and dated ergonomics. If you take a look at the test target that came with my rifle you can see the proof in the pudding. That's a pretty darn good 300 meter target for a semi auto service rifle. That's better than what I would expect from an AR with a similiar diameter barrel that hasn't been accurized with a bunch of aftermarket stuff.

I would expect the Tavor accuracy to be comparable to an M-16 or M4 with the same length barrel. The PE-90's accuracy is superior to a non tricked out or varmint M-16 or M4. Which is a fairly big accomplishment Considering it doesn't have a bull barrel and isn't free floated.
 
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Epoxy7 said:
Airborn 69,
The Swiss have a traditon of 300 meter target shooting. When they aren't making watches and chocolate, this is one of their favourite past times (Sorry for the stereotype, I couldn't resist). They compete with service rifles. The rifle is essentially designed for 300 meter target shooting. They like their accuracy. The PE-90 rifle is also machined like a fine watch. It's pretty amazing. The fantastic machining and attention to detail lead this rifle to be exceptionally accurate for a service rifle. The disadvantages are of course weight, size and dated ergonomics. If you take a look at the test target that came with my rifle you can see the proof in the pudding. That's a pretty darn good 300 meter target for a semi auto service rifle. That's better than what I would expect from an AR with a similiar diameter barrel that hasn't been accurized with a bunch of aftermarket stuff.

I would expect the Tavor accuracy to be comparable to an M-16 or M4 with the same length barrel. The PE-90's accuracy is superior to a non tricked out or varming M-16 or M4. Which is a fairly big accomplishment Ccnsidering it doesn't have a bull barrel and isn't free floated.
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During Service Rifle matches, which we shoot up too 300m, I have yet to see a PE90 win any matches..Thus said, the M14's & AR's seem to reign top.

It's all about the shooter like mentioned on past replies.
 
Well the Sig 550 is designed as an accurate rifle, things like M14/M1a's and Ar15's have more accuracy POTENTIAL.

the Sig is a combat rifle, almost more of a battle rifle, so getting a 1/4" group at 100 yards isn't what its meant to do. its menat to kill a "man sized target" at 3-400 yards (or less) and do it consistantly. It (as mentioned) doesn't have a really heavy contoured barrel, its not free floated, and its not gonna be quite as forgiving with slightly different ammo pressures (as the AR15 is self regulated).

That said, most stock Sig's will outshoot most stock AR15's. But you can upgrade an AR15 (or M1a/M14) to the point where it will outshoot a Sig.




To keep this Tavor related tho...

The Tavor wasn't really meant to be used for long range shooting. I can see 300 yards being a maximum shot for it, but most under 100 yards. The compact size and red-dot seem to be better suited to tighter quarters and CQB stuff. I wont doubt its an accurate rifle, but you'd be able to find many more accurate rifle's than the Tavor, but the Tavor's compact size and bullpup design would make it well suited for CQB or 3-gun type stuff, without sacrificing velocity. :D
 
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Well, there isn't any grey in this discussion......

The Tavor was built with FIBUA in mind yes.......Will it accurate to 300m ?? Likely yes. Why - Because the bullpup design allows a full length barrel in an M-4 length.....

Which will be more accurate ?? Given ammo that each likes (possibly different loads) they will likely be comparable. The final variable WILL be the shooter.....
 
tree mugger said:
Well, there isn't any grey in this discussion......

The Tavor was built with FIBUA in mind yes.......Will it accurate to 300m ?? Likely yes. Why - Because the bullpup design allows a full length barrel in an M-4 length.....
Which will be more accurate ?? Given ammo that each likes (possibly different loads) they will likely be comparable. The final variable WILL be the shooter.....
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My bold, when the L85A1 was issued I took it to the range and standing was able to fire 3 round bursts at 500 yards and still hit the fig 12 1/2 man and consistently drop the fig 11 (full man) on a gallery range converted to ETR. This was all down to good ammo and that long barrel that it is blessed with.
In fact with the fig 11 and 12 raised at the same time, you could fire a 5 round burst at the fig 12 and the fig 11 to the right would also drop.:sniper:
 
Epoxy7 said:
Airborn 69,
The Swiss have a traditon of 300 meter target shooting. When they aren't making watches and chocolate, this is one of their favourite past times (Sorry for the stereotype, I couldn't resist). They compete with service rifles. The rifle is essentially designed for 300 meter target shooting. They like their accuracy. The PE-90 rifle is also machined like a fine watch. It's pretty amazing. The fantastic machining and attention to detail lead this rifle to be exceptionally accurate for a service rifle. The disadvantages are of course weight, size and dated ergonomics. If you take a look at the test target that came with my rifle you can see the proof in the pudding. That's a pretty darn good 300 meter target for a semi auto service rifle. That's better than what I would expect from an AR with a similiar diameter barrel that hasn't been accurized with a bunch of aftermarket stuff.

I would expect the Tavor accuracy to be comparable to an M-16 or M4 with the same length barrel. The PE-90's accuracy is superior to a non tricked out or varmint M-16 or M4. Which is a fairly big accomplishment Considering it doesn't have a bull barrel and isn't free floated.
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I do Agree 100% with you on the fact that 300meter is there pass times, and I myself have shoot the black rifles and the carbine out to 400 meter, the last time at genesee was with swiss green rifles, and hitting pop can at 300meter, with iron site and also with 3-9X scopes, I do know how accurate the rifles it, in fact I am thinking about purchasing one at the moment,either the 20" or carbine, but when compare, both rifles should have the same set up in term of barrel length, optic and ammo, accuracy is one thing, but reliable is also another!
 
i really think that this may be attributed to the m21, and the experince of the shooters... experince is such a big factor in accuracy that i think people whom have been shooting PE-90s for some time will have a better experince, and then the m21 sight is making this even harder when it has its own quarks to people whom are used to high quality optics or irons...
 
First of all stop confusing the issue with experience of the shooter. Take that out of the equation. We're talking about the actual equipment. I believe the PE-90 will be more inherently accurate than the Tavor, for all of the reasons already mentioned. As for service rifle competitions, correct me if I'm wrong but the shooter is definately a far bigger factor, as are the ergonomics of the rifle. In this case the Sig is at a disadvantage. However for pure accuracy I believe the Sig will be superior to the Tavor.

We'll only know for sure once people start shooting the Tavor for groups. Which probably won't be very much, since that's not what it was designed for ;).
 
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