The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD

Reading this thread is depressing...

How is it that an engineer 80 years ago could design build and manufacture a better gun under communism than they can in Canada today? ####ing AK’s can run with a rubber band instead of a spring and nobody here can build a rifle that will last 5... let alone 10,000 rounds
 
jparent said:
Reading this thread is depressing...

How is it that an engineer 80 years ago could design build and manufacture a better gun under communism than they can in Canada today? ####ing AK’s can run with a rubber band instead of a spring and nobody here can build a rifle that will last 5... let alone 10,000 rounds
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I think you'll find that a nation-state with a population of millions that was the second most powerful nation in the world at the time, with decades if not centuries of firearms design experience in generational knowledge, devoting a significant portion of their billions of dollar (in today's dollars) military budget to developing rifles that will work for users whose education ranges from barely literate to post-secondary, and then taking then through multiple design iterations and having the entire countries' manufacturing and machining capabilities at their disposal to design, manufacture and support them, will produce different results than a 3-5 person team working out of a rented storefront somewhere and contracting out parts, equipment and manufacturing space piecemeal.

The comparison is not apples to apples.

That said, I do feel strongly that Crusader Arms should do better on their customer relations/communications, QC, QA and some of their fundamental design moves.

For the record, my Crusader Arms Dual Caliber combo is now up to 2200 rounds the the Liberator 9mm upper and 1400 rounds of 5.56mm through the Sentinel (Templar Gen 1) upper, both using the same lower, so I have 3600 rounds through this firearm. There were two significant issues, one of which was fixed through a warranty return, the other with a change in my maintenance routine. Overall I enjoy this firearm and will be keeping it for the foreseeable future.
 
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I had a chance to shoot the Gen 2 today. It was a buddies. I was very impressed. The Gen 2 is night and day compared to the Gen 1. Charging handle was excellent, accuracy 2moa at 100yd with 3x magnifier and 55gr reloads first try. I'd say 1.5 MOA with better magnification and ammo. Only issue was my buddy wasn't slapping the handle ie riding the bolt and that caused 3 light strikes. He then ran it hard ie slapped it and all 3 rounds ran and all ammo ran smooth thereafter. It's a big winner in my opinion. Very AR like. I've had the MCR which is even more accurate but nowhere near this gun overall.
 
johhny12gauge said:
I had a chance to shoot the Gen 2 today. It was a buddies. I was very impressed. The Gen 2 is night and day compared to the Gen 1. Charging handle was excellent, accuracy 2moa at 100yd with 3x magnifier and 55gr reloads first try. I'd say 1.5 MOA with better magnification and ammo. Only issue was my buddy wasn't slapping the handle ie riding the bolt and that caused 3 light strikes. He then ran it hard ie slapped it and all 3 rounds ran and all ammo ran smooth thereafter. It's a big winner in my opinion. Very AR like. I've had the MCR which is even more accurate but nowhere near this gun overall.
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Really glad you enjoyed it. I find the Gen 1 Templar upper to be really pleasant to shoot, so I imagine the Gen 2 is similar, but it sounds like you're saying it's much better... "night and day" I find a pretty strong statement. I guess I'll find out if I ever shoot a Gen 2.

Was your friend not using the paddle bolt release? That should have enough spring tension to throw it into battery.

The HK slap is definitely fun; I can see why he was doing it instead of the plain ol' bolt catch if that was the case.

I wouldn't characterize it as AR-like, personally. Maybe SCAR-L (without reciprocating charging handle) or Bren 2-like - the AR15 top charging handle is a very different manual of arms and otherwise the heavier weight puts it into the feels like category of a heavier firearm, rather than the very handy and light AR15s, and to me the gas-piston makes for a different "feel" when shooting too, vs. the AR15s I shot before the OiC.
 
The Gen 2 is much more streamlined of a gun. Lighter, pencil barrel and handguard. AR type lower and the bolt release is a big improvement for overseating issues common to the 180s. He wasn’t used to the charging handle so much as the bolt release on a C8. The cuts in the bolt to act as a forward assist we used once when he rode the charging handle so that came in handy. Under stress I doubt anyone would use.
I have a Bren 2 and have shot the Scar H in full auto in another country. Both great designs. This isn’t either but it still is bang for the buck best thing we have. I can still shoot C8s and the Templar shoots very soft, slightly softer I’d say. It is very audible in its actions and you can “feel” the guns pulse quite strongly. The lower price of $1600 now with AR stock make it a lot more appealing then the 2k version with the folder.
 
Nick3052 said:
I didn’t know you could cancel orders. I just emailed and asked for a cancellation. A store by my work has them in stock. Would much rather get my money back and go pick one up today
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Did they cancel it? I attempted to email and cancel my order and they wont respond. Like wtf is wrong with them? I'm now forced to request a chargeback from my CC.
 
MacPapRonin said:
I mean, physical things do super weird things at really high pressures and temperatures, in time segments us humans can't perceive. Clearly it is happening, so we have to figure out how. No word back from Crusader Arms, I assume?

I was thinking about your picture of the witness marks on the gas block - the mean point of impact of the various marks seems to be roughly at the 5 o'clock position relative to the piston hole, so the piston is bent downwards and to the right when it hits and gets stuck, right?

What would be pushing it upwards and to the left, if anything? Or, conversely, is the gas block slightly out of position (higher and further to the left than it should be)?
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After re-reading some of your replies i decided to do some digging on reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/s/GB22vFdEBY
This is what i assume to be the same issue. That would mean this is the second recorded instance? Unfortuneatly, the post has been locked and there was no resolution.
It appears the account has been terminated as well..
 
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Nicodeco said:
After re-reading some of your replies i decided to do some digging on reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/s/GB22vFdEBY
This is what i assume to be the same issue. That would mean this is the second recorded instance? Unfortuneatly, the post has been locked and there was no resolution.
It appears the account has been terminated as well..
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That person sent me a DM with the pictures in the post you reference - that's actually the person I reference a number of posts above when you first started asking about it. I sent them a number of suggestions but they never responded, probably because of their ban. There was actually another post, I guess since deleted, where I responded trying to help them.
 
GARY56 said:
Really wanted one of these but do my best to avoid self inflicted pain.
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Gary56, honestly speaking, I think if you get the Gen 2 Templar, you'll probably get a rifle that will do fine. Just be aware they are not X95s, Bren 2s or B&T APC 556s, and don't expect them to be. With buffer tube models now at $1600 they're not breaking the bank.

I have had a single issue with the operation of the 5.56 "Sentinel" (a Templar Gen 1 upper) half of the Dual Caliber Combo with the e-clip that holds the bolt hold open on the lower. Once I knew to monitor that e-clip for walk-out, it hasn't given me an issue since. That specific part, the lever-actuated bolt release/hold open, was replaced in the Gen 2 with a more conventional AR15 bolt hold-open paddle, so that's not likely a point of failure any more for Gen 2s.

Now, I'm not saying you should buy an Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 as the best possible 5.56x45mm rifle - for best value for money I would buy an NR X95 or a restricted barrel length Bren 2 - both can be had for under $2500 - another option which is less reliable than a Bren 2 or a X95 but probably slightly more reliable than a Crusader is a Lockhart Tactical Raven 556. If you like the look of the Crusader and don't mind the possibility of a few small maintenance/reliability issues, go ahead. It's a risk, but then you've got something which you prefer. Everyone should weigh the risks, rewards and value for money when buying a firearm.

I do not recommend the Crusader Arms Templar 2 as a SHTF rifle; as much as I'd like it to be capable of that level of utility, it doesn't get over the bar of reliability and portability. As an accurate, easy to disassemble, easy to clean firearm that shoots comfortably, it seems to work fine for most users. There are, of course, exceptions like Nicodeco - who is experiencing a legit and challenging issue with the weird piston problem they're seeing right now.

I do not recommend the Crux or the Crucible at the moment. It's clear there are design/QA/QC issues with both of those products.

It also appears clear that pre-ordering from CA or expecting good comms with sales or if you have a shipment or payment issue with them, that you are not likely to get satisfactory responses.
 
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MacPapRonin said:
Gary56, honestly speaking, I think if you get the Gen 2 Templar, you'll probably get a rifle that will do fine. Just be aware they are not X95s, Bren 2s or B&T APC 556s, and don't expect them to be. With buffer tube models now at $1600 they're not breaking the bank.

I have had a single issue with the operation of the 5.56 "Sentinel" (a Templar Gen 1 upper) half of the Dual Caliber Combo with the e-clip that holds the bolt hold open on the lower. Once I knew to monitor that e-clip for walk-out, it hasn't given me an issue since. That specific part, the lever-actuated bolt release/hold open, was replaced in the Gen 2 with a more conventional AR15 bolt hold-open paddle, so that's not likely a point of failure any more for Gen 2s.

Now, I'm not saying you should buy an Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 as the best possible 5.56x45mm rifle - for best value for money I would buy an NR X95 or a restricted barrel length Bren 2 - both can be had for under $2500 - another option which is less reliable than a Bren 2 or a X95 but probably slightly more reliable than a Crusader is a Lockhart Tactical Raven 556. If you like the look of the Crusader and don't mind the possibility of a few small maintenance/reliability issues, go ahead. It's a risk, but then you've got something which you prefer. Everyone should weigh the risks, rewards and value for money when buying a firearm.

I do not recommend the Crusader Arms Templar 2 as a SHTF rifle; as much as I'd like it to be capable of that level of utility, it doesn't get over the bar of reliability and portability. As an accurate, easy to disassemble, easy to clean firearm that shoots comfortably, it seems to work fine for most users. There are, of course, exceptions like Nicodeco - who is experiencing a legit and challenging issue with the weird piston problem they're seeing right now.

I do not recommend the Crux or the Crucible at the moment. It's clear there are design/QA/QC issues with both of those products.

It also appears clear that pre-ordering from CA or expecting good comms with sales or if you have a shipment or payment issue with them, that you are not likely to get satisfactory responses.
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If it was just one thing maybe I could get on board, but reliability issues, poor quality control and from what I've read no beuno customer service makes it a no go.

Too bad I really like the look of the rifle but took my $2000 and bought a SL8 on sale.

If one Canadian company could produce consistently reliable rifles with solid customer service they could almost corner the market. Even the bolt action BCL Bison has reports of the bolt handle snapping.

Having said that two people at my range have over 8000 rounds through their Lockhart rifles without issue.
 
GARY56 said:
If it was just one thing maybe I could get on board, but reliability issues, poor quality control and from what I've read no beuno customer service makes it a no go.

Too bad I really like the look of the rifle but took my $2000 and bought a SL8 on sale.
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That's a fair decision. The SL8 won't likely steer you wrong! I always forget about the SL8 as a 5.56x45mm SA rifle option in Canada. Thanks for the reminder.

If one Canadian company could produce consistently reliable rifles with solid customer service they could almost corner the market. Even the bolt action BCL Bison has reports of the bolt handle snapping.

Having said that two people at my range have over 8000 rounds through their Lockhart rifles without issue.
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Agreed. Sadly, none of the current batch, with the possible exception of Lockhart Tactical, seem to be succeeding in that regard.

To be clear about Crusader Arms - their service and warranty return department seems very responsive - I've always received answers within a reasonable amount of time when I was trying to get service assistance. It's the sales, order fulfillment, shipping and refund/complaints side of things at CA that is really poor, from many, many tales of interactions with them here at CGN, at Reddit and on FB.
 
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This confuses me.. I have done lots of research on the gun, I’ve shot one a few times, I’ve seen just as many reliability posts regarding every other firearm as this one. The gun is reliable, it’s beefy, and it looks sweet. I think it’s a great gun. (My opinion)

It doesn’t break, yes it’s heavy and yes CA is not fun to deal with when ordering through them (currently in 1 1/2 months waiting was told 10-14 days)
 
As well as, handling the gun is nice the Gen 2 new paddle is great, stops over inserting a mag. There is 0 play between the upper and lower, the rifle feels well made. I’ve held and shot pretty well all the AR180 varients we have our hands on. The feel the the build quality on the Templar is just as good as any other gun I’ve shot. The WK and the SVR2 feel cheap with all the slop in them. The Raven and the Templar are all tightly fit together.
 
I won't speak to the first Gen as my friend had issues they promptly fixed but as I have at least shot the Gen 2 and have a few other 180s to compare to I was very impressed with the Gen 2. With that said one range outing isn't a full picture but I would give it a quick positive review based on a single exposure.
 
I think that would most certainly do the trick. People get a sour taste in their mouth for the gun when the company basically lies on the arrival time of their new rifles. So it just gives the rifle a bad start. It’s a good gun, if they just put a little more effort into the customer care I really think a lot of these negatives on this forum wouldn’t be posted.
 
johhny12gauge said:
I won't speak to the first Gen as my friend had issues they promptly fixed but as I have at least shot the Gen 2 and have a few other 180s to compare to I was very impressed with the Gen 2. With that said one range outing isn't a full picture but I would give it a quick positive review based on a single exposure.
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Yup completely agree. I was very impressed based off other comparing rifles I’ve shot. Like I said it’s a good gun I would reccomend to someone to give a try.
 
Having owned a Gen 1 Templar myself, I think that they are a fine, reliable and sufficiently accurate utility and sporting rifle for range use, varmint hunting or predator protection in the woods. The rifle's biggest shortcomings (Customer Service notwithstanding) were the excessive weight and that funky Thumb-actuated Bolt Catch that kept self-disassembling. Both of those issues are addressed in the Gen 2 version of the rifle, with the weight reduced by approximately 1lb and with the Lower Receiver redesigned to use a standard AR15 Bolt Catch. I'd definitely consider buying another if I were in need of a 5.56mm rifle (which I am not). My Gen 1 rifle was utterlly reliable and consistently shot 2 MOA with PMC bulk ammo, so I can only imagine that the Gen 2 rifle is even better overall with the weight reduction and relocated Bolt Catch.

The downfall of the Templar has been the "Crusader Firearms" team behind the rifle. Had they put the same effort into establishing a front-end office with a small but efficient staff and a capable Service & Warranty Department as they did in developing the rifle, they'd have a balanced company capable of efficiently communicating with and providing service to their actual and potential client base. This is a frequent downfall of small manufacturing companies within the Canadian firearms industry. The problem is often exacerbated by the inability to predict firearm delivery times due to unreliable sub-contractor delivery of key components. Lockhart Tactical and Samuel Lockhart's Raven rifle is another case of a small company with inadequate customer sevice and support. These companies evidently operate on a shoe-string. They accept considerable risk that their product could be outlawed mid-manufacture by a petulant and vindictive governnment, and for that we owe them a debt of gratitude. But they really do need to work on building up their Front End and Customer Service. Imagine how many orders are currently slipping through the cracks because there is nobody to answer the phone...
 
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