The Varminter

[cr5]

In order to address concerns regarding restricted barrel lengths, the pin of the barrel extension is flipped 180 degrees. This is simply so you cannot easily swap back and forth with a short 10" AR barrel. The downside to this for the guy intent on modifying the rifle is those barrel extensions are proprietary. One would need to modify (machine) the upper, which from the manufacturer standpoint is something we can point to and say it didn't leave here that way.

I can't recall anyone saying that future parts would be leveraged against you or anything, but we also need to discourage some aspects of caliber conversions from a safety perspective. (Think subsonic 300blk in an 18.6" barrel... Boom. ) Warranty however, would be voided by modifying the rifle, and you could be charged shop rates for any repairs afterwards. That's just industry standard.

I assure you that some caliber conversations are being researched (6.5). As long as the test results are positive, they will be available direct from manufacturer. Priority is on delivering the rifles that have been ordered however.

Currently there are limited numbers of parts available for uppers, in the future, who knows what's possible.

Cheers
Shaun

I've tried to resist commenting in this thread because I haven't been overly impressed with the performance of the three MH's I've shot so far, I haven't handled or fired a MV, and didn't want to be the guy that points out the negatives again but your comments about 300BLK make me think you either know nothing about the round or you're just trying to scare us into paying your ridiculous prices to have any work done.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some beautiful custom rifles come out of your shop and the prices are competitive on those but these are glorified AR's with a few minor changes in the CNC program for the upper and lower then a couple little mods on some parts you bought from other manufacturers to make them work with your stuff. You didn't invent and manufacture a completely new rifle here with all parts made in house yet the price is nearly double what a quality AR would cost. I would actually be fine with the price if they were as reliable as an AR and the market set the price but the MH's I've shot have all had feeding issues and the gen 2 pmag only thing is pretty annoying, I was glad to hear the floppy floating charge handle issue was addressed but I have yet to try one of the newer rifles.
I like the way the rear takedown pin was eliminated and the machining/fit/finish is great but reliability of the MH left me thinking that more time should have been spent refining the product before releasing it to the public. I think the number of them that continually flow through the EE shows that people that actually shoot them have similar feelings.

Your comment about subsonic 300BLK in an 18.6 inch barrel doesn't make any sense at all. I shoot sub sonic 300BLK from my 18.6 inch NR ACR all the time, I have loads that cycle the action perfectly. I had a barrel custom made, modified the gas system myself and it is 100% reliable with subsonic and supersonic loads, there is no risk of boom, some factory loads won't cycle the action but the bullet always leaves the muzzle somewhere just over 1000fps.

I understand that ATRS doesn't want anyone doing something stupid and putting a restricted length barrel in the rifle thus drawing RCMP attention to it and risking them revisiting their decision on the classification but what people do to their property after the sale is their business and not the manufacturers, of course major modifications should void the warranty but if making a tiny notch in the receiver for the index pin of a 300BLK barrel voids the rifles waranty then I have even less interest in this rifle than I did before. I'm certainly not willing to pay a shop $1000 to do something I can do myself for half that.

Until there are more of these in people's hands and we hear how reliable they are I'll continue to sit on the side watching but if 6MT's experience with 77gr is an indication it sounds like a repeat of what I've seen from the MH. They shouldn't be this finicky with ammo or magazines. They should feed anything other than softpoint ammo as long as it fits in the magazine, of course the barrel will have certain ammo it likes better than others and only produce excellent accuracy from premium ammo but they should cycle it all.

 

[drifter dave]

As someone who hasn't competed in service rifle (yet), nor am I familiar with the rules... would you please explain why a different magazine would cost a competitor points?

Easy answer. He lost points because his mags failed to work.

 

[6MT]

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[Brianma65]

Can't ya just take it out in the bush somewhere , close to home maybe? Have you tryed any lighter bullits?

 

[6MT]

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[BeerBaron]

I have ran over 300 rounds through my MV now. Mostly ATRS mags, but some LAR, And Beo mags as well. Not. One. Issue. 55 grain factory and handloads, and probably 50ish 69 grain handloads. My rifle/mags run great. Even won our local 3 gun match shooting my MV yesterday. Just hope my form 6 gets approved with it in time for me to run it at the Surefire World Multigun Championship in Vegas later this month!

 

[Kranatos]

Posted by mistake

 

[ATRS Shaun]

DI vs piston. You just said factory ammo doesn't run reliably in your 18.6" piston driven ACR...

Why again would we pursue that in a direct impingement system where the pressure will bleed off dramatically more?

 

[Brian46]

I fail to see how another brand rifle having a malfunction is justification as to why it should be of no concern that an atrs rifle malfunctions

 

[Brian46]

I live between the two large Lakes here in the Okanagan and have a canoe if that helps.



Agreed we should not be blaming our local boys/girls in blue, as you say it's coming from much higher up the chain of command.



Doesn't seem fair that modifying a product after you've paid for it in full would be any of the manufacturers concern/business. I'd be more then a little pissed if Ford complained that I'd dropped a big block V8 into my F150 where there once sat Fords factory small block V8 and then they choose to no longer sell me parts for maintenance anymore, just because.
Holding back the purchase of parts as a means of deterring modifications to this platform just seems a little bizarre and disheartening to the purchase of this rifle.
I remember ATRS had concerns over barrel lengths being modified to less then a 18.6" NR status length and therefore bringing up concerns of a restricted MH/MV rifle, but never anything regarding calibre conversions as being an issue? Of course that doesn't mean to say it hadn't come up...

I do recognize the Canadian situation regarding our firearm regulations with respect to the many items pertaining to the use of Black Rifles or their accessories and the thin ice we navigate on regularly due to the very poor wording of our Canadian firearm regulations.

Yes, while there are many attributes regarding Black Rifles (and many other types of firearms) that we must be aware of and adhere to for legal reasons because our firearm regulations here in Canada are shaded in grey to say the least with respect to their wording/meanings...
And while I appreciate all ATRS has done to bring a NR rifle to market that offers us a choice similar to an AR rifle, concern over calibre choices does not come to mind (for myself at least) as an issue we need worry of; barrel lengths yes, different/larger calibre's no.

Or am I missing something in this scenario?



So you're telling us you don't have a Ruger 10/22 hiding away in a back corner of your safe?



I think I like this pic. best, but of course this rifle looks great from any angle and I sure do like the black barrel treatment (will have to do that to my next project as it just looks so sweet).

Cheers D

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...-VARMINTER?p=12126949&viewfull=1#post12126949

Post 56 if you care to start reading the ramblings as to why other calibers are a no go

 

[ATRS Shaun]

I fail to see how another brand rifle having a malfunction is justification as to why it should be of no concern that an atrs rifle malfunctions

That was not the direction of my response in the least. I was pointing out, that we are not looking at doing 300blk, despite what someone may be running in another platform.

As far as the 77gr 5.56 ammo, I have a few concerns about pushing the bullets back into the case too much and regarding overall length.
Any concerns regarding the reliability of your modern varmint would best be addressed by emailing info@albertatacticalrifle.com

As I am no longer working out of the office in Calgary I do not have up to the minute technical specs and details but rather am simply trying to assist where I can and how best I can in conversation. And the multi-caliber topic has been in discussion since before the first varmint lower was ever made, and clearly that debate isn't going away anytime soon.

 

[cr5]

DI vs piston. You just said factory ammo doesn't run reliably in your 18.6" piston driven ACR...

Why again would we pursue that in a direct impingement system where the pressure will bleed off dramatically more?

What does DI vs piston have to do with your comment about it could cause a kaboom? The bullet still leaves the muzzle at approximately the same velocity it just uses the pressure behind the bullet in a slightly different way.

What I'm saying is that not all factory ammo will cycle in every semi auto but that doesn't mean it will blow up in your face. Just like a propper M-14 can have problems with some commercial 308, some 300BLK rifles can have troubles with certain factory ammo. They will still feed it from the magazine but some may not have the pressure the gas system needs to cycle fully or sometimes they have too much pressure. This is why some manufacturers incorporate an adjustable gas system in their design.

300BLK is no more dangerous than any other caliber out there unless it's being loaded by someone who tries to use powders that are not suitable for the cartridge or are trying to achieve unreasonable velocities from it. This is true for every cartridge out there yet I don't hear anyone from ATRS saying handloading will void your warranty (like many other manufacturers do), quite the opposite, almost all reports of the accuracy people expect from a rifle with a $500-$1000 barrel are achieved with FGMM or handloads, everything else seems to get the good old "you don't feed a Ferrari regular unleaded and expect it to perform do you".

Some good points. But, do you realize that these are Non-Restricted in class? That should tell you the R&D and time that went into them. Yes, I didn't much like their price point either. But, it is not that big of a deal when you consider that it's basically an AR that isn't restricted to being a range queen. I can actually take it out into the real world.

EDIT: I have yet to try some metal magazines.

Of course I realize they are non resteicted, I've shot three MH's and run close to 200 rounds through them.
Being non restricted is not a trait that justifies being close to double the cost of a similar rifle that happens to be restricted.
I did commend them for the great way they got rid of the rear takedown pin and I agree that the fit/finish are great but the other small things they changed to make it not an AR are not things that thousands of hours were needed to incorporate into the design and the time and money spent doesn't all need to be made back in the first batch. My problem with the rifles is that for the price and considering the reputation ATRS has I expect the rifle to work 100% of the time with all suitable ammo (not softpoints). Like I said earlier, I don't expect insane accuracy from all ammo but it should be able to strip a round from a STANAG pattern magazine every time and get it in the chamber.
You would think that an ATRS magazine in an ATRS rifle would feed correctly yet you have modified your magazines to try to get it to feed reliably.
If the rifle was reliable and ate anything you fed it like an AR does I would consider it a bargain when you consider it's price isn't really that much more than a Swiss Arms which even though the one I owned didn't impress me in the accuracy department it did function 100%

 

[onetwentyish]

I could be wrong cr5, but I actually believe that ATRS has said hand loads do void warranty. I am sure Rick or Shawn can comment to this further.

 

[cr5]

I could be wrong cr5, but I actually believe that ATRS has said hand loads do void warranty. I am sure Rick or Shawn can comment to this further.

So is it FGMM they do all their testing with? Whatever it is why aren't they telling every person that buys one that it pretty much only functions with whatever it is they test with and why don't owners ever report how that ammo performs in the rifle?
I just can't figure out why there are so many MH's that are so picky with ammo and mags but the rifle is basically an AR-10 with enough changes to get a NR classification. The day I was out with Stormchaser and VooDoo we tried 9 different types of commercial ammo side by side with my AR-10 and my rifle fed every round from any magazine and was just as accurate as the Proof barrel in the MH only he was piercing primers and having failures to feed. The MH even had a few issues with 150gr FMJ which every 308 semi should be able to feed reliably.

I don't want to bash the MH or MV, I appreciate what ATRS has brought to the market and think they are a really nice rifle. I'm just saying that considering the cost of them I would expect better reliability and to also see some owners posting some better groups from them considering the quality of the barrels that are going into them.

 

[Sqr]

Can someone show me a one off brand custom rifle that is not sensitive to cheap or sub par ammo. What I mean by sub par is not the best hand load or match ammo.

I don't see many.

 

[mrsmitty]

Picked mine up today. ATR installed the Noveske NSR handguard I supplied. Looks and feels outstanding.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

So is it FGMM they do all their testing with? Whatever it is why aren't they telling every person that buys one that it pretty much only functions with whatever it is they test with and why don't owners ever report how that ammo performs in the rifle?
I just can't figure out why there are so many MH's that are so picky with ammo and mags but the rifle is basically an AR-10 with enough changes to get a NR classification. The day I was out with Stormchaser and VooDoo we tried 9 different types of commercial ammo side by side with my AR-10 and my rifle fed every round from any magazine and was just as accurate as the Proof barrel in the MH only he was piercing primers and having failures to feed. The MH even had a few issues with 150gr FMJ which every 308 semi should be able to feed reliably.

I don't want to bash the MH or MV, I appreciate what ATRS has brought to the market and think they are a really nice rifle. I'm just saying that considering the cost of them I would expect better reliability and to also see some owners posting some better groups from them considering the quality of the barrels that are going into them.

Most if not all manufacturers have a clause in their warranty wording to preclude the use of hand loaded ammo. This is to limit liability exposure from personal injury caused by hand loading ammo more than damage to the rifle. In today's age of "everyone else is to blame" the lawyers who write warranty paperwork try to cover the makers butt as best they can.
There is alot that is written in our warranty, just like everyone elses that is subject to the manufacturers discretion. We typically handle all issues on an individual basis, but still need to be protected, just like every other manufacturer.

For test firing we use AE308 150 gr FMJ, Fiocchi 147 gr FMJ and some Privi 150 FMJ simply as it is cheap which IS a consideration when running 20 rounds through each and every rifle. For accuracy testing we run GMM 168 gr BTHP. We do not subscribe to accuracy testing with ammo that is not commonly available as some makers do.
We also unfortunately have to build rifles that are geared to the lowest common denominator of client.
This is not a slam against anyone, but we get quite a large number of inquiries from guys who have purchased a rifle and have no idea that unlike their SKS or bolt rifle, these guns need to be run wet, or that axle grease may not be the best lubricant to pack a buffer tube full with, or that firmly pulling the seated mag, rather than the mag well, back to act as a fore grip could be the cause of cycling problems caused by the mag being forced into an angle that precludes feeding.

I believe the reason your AR10 fed well with every ammo you tried is the fact that the tolerances in the rifle are not as tight as what ours are, which makes sense for a battle rifle. The Proof barrels have tighter "match" type chambers rather than milspec type chambers which will tolerate a wider variety of ammo.

You raise some valid points as to why owners prefer to sell and take a beating on an investment rather than contacting us for a possible solution. We have several hundred MH rifles out in the public hands now and to date exactly 7 have raised any real concerns about feeding or accuracy.

All of us here at the shop have 1st Gen MH rifles, my own but it has yet to malfunction in any way despite the ammo or the mags I use and produces very acceptable accuracy for the platform. Certainly not the .2 to .3 my bolt rifles deliver but .5 to .75 is common. Shaun's has shot some truly stellar groups and has functioned reliably to the best of my knowledge.
Some of our clients are doing extremely well in various competitions with them.

In speaking with quite a few clients who are now picking up their Varminters, and who have Hunters already, most will not post results or even comments on the various forums, there has been that much negativity directed our way from members of the various forums. We know of 2 forum members who felt it necessary to contact the RCMP to try and make a case that our rifles should be restricted for some reason, and another who sent hate mail to Calibre magazine regarding our FRT status.

On that note also we have had a couple of clients come to us with their observations that have helped us to improve the rifles.
It seems easy for guys to bash, but near impossible to be constructive.
Believe me we take ALL constructive suggestions seriously so we can refine and improve our products.

 

[6MT]

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[cr5]

Most if not all manufacturers have a clause in their warranty wording to preclude the use of hand loaded ammo. This is to limit liability exposure from personal injury caused by hand loading ammo more than damage to the rifle. In today's age of "everyone else is to blame" the lawyers who write warranty paperwork try to cover the makers butt as best they can.
There is alot that is written in our warranty, just like everyone elses that is subject to the manufacturers discretion. We typically handle all issues on an individual basis, but still need to be protected, just like every other manufacturer.

For test firing we use AE308 150 gr FMJ, Fiocchi 147 gr FMJ and some Privi 150 FMJ simply as it is cheap which IS a consideration when running 20 rounds through each and every rifle. For accuracy testing we run GMM 168 gr BTHP. We do not subscribe to accuracy testing with ammo that is not commonly available as some makers do.
We also unfortunately have to build rifles that are geared to the lowest common denominator of client.
This is not a slam against anyone, but we get quite a large number of inquiries from guys who have purchased a rifle and have no idea that unlike their SKS or bolt rifle, these guns need to be run wet, or that axle grease may not be the best lubricant to pack a buffer tube full with, or that firmly pulling the seated mag, rather than the mag well, back to act as a fore grip could be the cause of cycling problems caused by the mag being forced into an angle that precludes feeding.

I believe the reason your AR10 fed well with every ammo you tried is the fact that the tolerances in the rifle are not as tight as what ours are, which makes sense for a battle rifle. The Proof barrels have tighter "match" type chambers rather than milspec type chambers which will tolerate a wider variety of ammo.

You raise some valid points as to why owners prefer to sell and take a beating on an investment rather than contacting us for a possible solution. We have several hundred MH rifles out in the public hands now and to date exactly 7 have raised any real concerns about feeding or accuracy.

All of us here at the shop have 1st Gen MH rifles, my own but it has yet to malfunction in any way despite the ammo or the mags I use and produces very acceptable accuracy for the platform. Certainly not the .2 to .3 my bolt rifles deliver but .5 to .75 is common. Shaun's has shot some truly stellar groups and has functioned reliably to the best of my knowledge.
Some of our clients are doing extremely well in various competitions with them.

In speaking with quite a few clients who are now picking up their Varminters, and who have Hunters already, most will not post results or even comments on the various forums, there has been that much negativity directed our way from members of the various forum's. We know of 2 forum members who felt it necessary to contact the RCMP to try and make a case that our rifles should be restricted for some reason, and another who sent hate mail to Calibre magazine regarding our FRT status.

On that note also we have had a couple of clients come to us with their observations that have helped us to improve the rifles.
It seems easy for guys to bash, but near impossible to be constructive.
Believe me we take ALL constructive suggestions seriously so we can refine and improve our products.

Thanks for chiming in Rick, I'm not sure if you remember my email to you after my afternoon with Stormchasers rifle VooDoo, but I hope my feedback contributed to your improvement of the folding charge handle. That was the thread where we were pretty happy with the results considering the low to medium quality ammo that we were using for break-in and initial accuracy testing that was immediately jumped on by the haters and Stormchaser got an infraction for one of his replies to the ignorant replies he was getting and he deleted all his posts and pictures because of it.
It's strange that the rifles I've played with all seemed to have small issues (all first run rifles), I know Stormchaser sent his back to you about the primer piercing he was experiencing but I didn't get to shoot it again after that before he sold it and another guy at the range with his the same day was having similar issues.

I don't mean to bash your product but I've seen issues with every one that I've shot and considering the price I expected a little better for reliability.
I wasn't going to post in this thread as I didn't want to discourage people from buying your rifles but Shaun's comments about 300BLK in an 18.6 inch barrel were just ignorant and I wanted him to clarify what he meant as it sounded like scare tactics to make sure every owner came to your shop for a $1000 barrel rather than installing their own caliber converion if they desired.

I understand what your saying about lowest common denominator for clients as I've seen a couple owners that hardly knew how to load their rifle let alone strip it or lubricate it correctly. Catering to those people though would make me think it would be in your best interests to loosen up on some tolerances in favor of increased reliability.
I'd really like to get my hands on a MV and do some load development to see what it's capable of but my non restricted ACR with my 223 and 300BLK conversions is so accurate and reliable that I really see no reason to consider replacing it and I don't have $4500+ sitting around in the firearms budget to spend on something that won't do anything my current rifles can't already do.

I'm no hater but I'm no fanboy either, I judge firearms based on my personal experience with them and share my opinions. Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing your product that wasn't my intention.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Thanks for chiming in Rick, I'm not sure if you remember my email to you after my afternoon with Stormchasers rifle VooDoo, but I hope my feedback contributed to your improvement of the folding charge handle. That was the thread where we were pretty happy with the results considering the low to medium quality ammo that we were using for break-in and initial accuracy testing that was immediately jumped on by the haters and Stormchaser got an infraction for one of his replies to the ignorant replies he was getting and he deleted all his posts and pictures because of it.
It's strange that the rifles I've played with all seemed to have small issues (all first run rifles), I know Stormchaser sent his back to you about the primer piercing he was experiencing but I didn't get to shoot it again after that before he sold it and another guy at the range with his the same day was having similar issues.

I don't mean to bash your product but I've seen issues with every one that I've shot and considering the price I expected a little better for reliability.
I wasn't going to post in this thread as I didn't want to discourage people from buying your rifles but Shaun's comments about 300BLK in an 18.6 inch barrel were just ignorant and I wanted him to clarify what he meant as it sounded like scare tactics to make sure every owner came to your shop for a $1000 barrel rather than installing their own caliber converion if they desired.

I understand what your saying about lowest common denominator for clients as I've seen a couple owners that hardly knew how to load their rifle let alone strip it or lubricate it correctly. Catering to those people though would make me think it would be in your best interests to loosen up on some tolerances in favor of increased reliability.
I'd really like to get my hands on a MV and do some load development to see what it's capable of but my non restricted ACR with my 223 and 300BLK conversions is so accurate and reliable that I really see no reason to consider replacing it and I don't have $4500+ sitting around in the firearms budget to spend on something that won't do anything my current rifles can't already do.

I'm no hater but I'm no fanboy either, I judge firearms based on my personal experience with them and share my opinions. Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing your product that wasn't my intention.

I do recall our conversation and do not consider you a hater by any stretch. I don't know exactly what Shaun was on about so can't comment on that.

Primer being pierced or blown out is in 99.9% of the time an ammo issue. As you know an AR platform employs a floating firing pin, and unless the pin is wicked sharp hard to blame the rifle for pierced primers. We replaced Storms firing pin and with the same ammo had the same results. Some of the ammo available today is loaded very hot, too hot in many cases for an auto loader. Given the lighter hammer spring that the Timney trigger has I am amazed that any primers get punctured, the reason we do not recommend surplus MG ammo is that the hammer fall is too light to reliably light up the hard cupped primers typically used in MG ammo.