They apparently have banned all flintlock and percussion shotguns all gauges.
- Thread starter tula
- Start date
Just to help me understand, what's the prohibited status on:
1) a greater than 20mm replica flintlock meeting the velocity requirements to legally make it a firearm, but a replica made last week?
2) a greater than 20mm flintlock made last week that has modern style (AR looking even) parts and clad in black plastic? I don't know if such a thing exists, but for the sake of discussion.
If the answer to (1) is that even though it's new made it resembles an antique so it is not prohibited because it's considered an antique and therefor not subject to the May 1 OIC, then is (2) similarly OK? Or is (2) prohibited based on looks? If it is looks, what about the large range between my antique replica and my 'AR style' flintlock? Where would the line be drawn?
Or are both (1) and (2) prohibited because neither are truly antiques?
It is my understanding that the above are considered to be exempt from licensing and registration but firearms for the purposes of storage or if used in a crime. There was a case in Nanaimo a few years ago where a person who was banned from owning firearms, was successfully prosecuted for possessing antiques. The court took the position that antiques were firearms for the purposes of the defendant's prohibition order. The Order in Council makes no distinction between antiques and industrial guns etc and modern guns. Unless cc 84 (3) has changed to say that the 20 mm prohibition does not apply to antiques and industrial guns, flare guns etc are exempt, I would take it to mean that the prohibition applies to all firearms regardless of age or use. Stupid but so is the RCMP definition of bore diameter which says that bore diameter is the greatest diameter exclusive of the chamber. That catches shotguns with screw in chokes and blunderbusses. On the subject of blunderbusses (blunderbi ? ) I think there are some modern percussion ones and they would be prohibited even if flintlocks were not
cheers mooncoon
I've copied this directly from the RCMP's page, it defines the measument as from the back of the chamber to before the choke, my understanding tiis means that our 10 and 12 gauge shotguns remain non restricted or antique depending on when they were made.
On May 1st, 2020, the Government of Canada announced that it had made amendments to the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted (SOR/98-462) [Classification Regulations] prescribing certain firearms as prohibited. One of the categories of the newly prohibited firearms include "Any firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater" (s. 95 of the Classification Regulations).
The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.
Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).
On May 1st, 2020, the Government of Canada announced that it had made amendments to the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted (SOR/98-462) [Classification Regulations] prescribing certain firearms as prohibited. One of the categories of the newly prohibited firearms include "Any firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater" (s. 95 of the Classification Regulations).
The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.
Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).
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I grabbed this from the other site cause I am lazy atm
so it shouldn't matter what the OIC says antiques are still antiques
there is more info from NFA here:
https://nfa.ca/2005/02/25/antique-and-blackpowder-firearms/
wrong, that definition forgets the forcing cone which makes every 12 gauge banned, since the forcing cone is a cone from the diameter of the chamber to the diameter of the barrel it will exceed 20mm, I am sure a 20 gauge would be banned too by this definition.
thanks I forgot that cavete. I will also point out that some antique pistols are both antiques and prohibited due to barrel length, but to my understanding a person could still use it since it is an antique, and no need to att or whatever.
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your point #5 ccs 95 is partially wrong because pre 1898 handguns which are prohibited by caliber are not antiques under SOR 98-464. It is only handguns which are pre 1898 and have short barrels and are not exempted by caliber which are antiques. Also antique firearms must be stored as if they were firearms with the exception, I think, that antique handguns can be stored similar to non restricted firearms
cheers mooncoon
You know the bore of a shotgun begins after the chamber and ends before the choke... and with threaded chokes it matters not what size the threads are - they are not used to measure the size of the bore.
The government, the RCMP, and the gun industry all agree on this. Shotgun bores have been measured this way for 100 years or more.
The 20mm ban does not affect any 10 or 12 or smaller gauge shotgun.
I will have to find my source of the RCMP definition. It is the wording of the definition which is critical. It also occurs to me that if antique firearms were not considered to be firearms by the government, they would not be stating how they must be stored and transported. It is this classification of antiques as being non firearms for some purposes and firearms for other purposes which means that unless the order in council exempts them, then section cc 84 (3) has to be amended to extend the bore diameter exemption to them
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Post 27...
"The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke."
The 20mm ban does not affect any 10 gauge or smaller shotguns.
"The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke."
The 20mm ban does not affect any 10 gauge or smaller shotguns.
The forcing cone is considered part of the chamber, the bore starts after that... and ends at the choke.
I don't understand why so many gun enthusiasts think the bore is something other than the bore... The RCMP, the Government, and all of the gun industry accept the fact the 20mm ban does not affect any 10 gauge or smaller shotgun.
The 20mm ban does not affect any 10 gauge or smaller shotguns.
Why try to dispute that?
really? then why does the CBSA say that it is measured to the Muzzle? the rcmp cfp says it is measured to the choke so you have to assume a fixed choke rifle, if it is a removable choke rifle "convention" says removable accessories are removed, so you are wrong. Further to this there is no legal definition to "bore" so again you are wrong, it can be whatever they say it is, until a judge decides what it is.
again you are wrong. The chamber is the chamber, and the barrel is the barrel.(those also have legal definitions but I am not sure Forcing cone does) according the the rcmp quote above "the bore is a point after the chamber but before the choke" the cbsa definition is similar but it is "from the chamber to the muzzle". no mention of forcing cone, therefore the forcing cone could form part of the bore, or not, but again there is no legal definition for bore so no one can know for sure.
"The 20mm ban does not affect any 10 gauge or smaller shotguns." um 8 is smaller than 10 are you sure about this? @sshole I know but precision of language is what law is, and this statement kind of proves my point that we just don't know because this OIC is to vague. That is why one must be careful not to commit a serious criminal offence by trading, transporting or using a banned firearm, and if we don't know if a firearm is banned because the simpletons at the rcmp, and public safety ministers office cant use precise language how can we know?
FYI both blairs office and the rcmp have been asked directly about the forcing cone, and threaded muzzle with no answer. they have also been asked directly about the 10,000 joule prohibition and how it relates to 12 gauges shotguns and still no answer.
you ask why dispute that? I will state, that if I can make a clear argument as to why they are banned by OIC (and i am nobody) how can anyone be safe using them, so why wouldn't you question it if it could mean jail time?
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I may have to retract my earlier comment on bore diameter including the threaded diameter at the muzzle. A press release by the CSSA, last night, said that the RCMP have recently changed their long standing definition of bore diameter. I have asked them to send me the exact wording past and present of bore diameter
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
I feel this is worth repeating. I appears quite clear to me as I don't try to add or subtract anything from this RCMP statement. Nothing about forcing cones.
The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements.
"The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke."
The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.
Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).
So, 10 and 12 gauge shotguns are not prohibited regardless of fixed or removable choke.
The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements.
"The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke."
The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.
Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).
So, 10 and 12 gauge shotguns are not prohibited regardless of fixed or removable choke.
