Thoughts from Renegade owners?

[45ACPKING]

I built one in .458 Socom, one in .223 Wylde and a Maverick in .338 Federal

tell me about your .338 federal..... any issues or regrets?
That is exactly what I would be building if I chose a Maverick as I had already accumulated all my parts and was going to buy a stag set when the OIC came down.
I don't want to take a single penny in loss over the premium parts I bought for the potential stag build by trying to flog them in the ee...... I'll just keep them in hopes the oic is rolled back or a sale on maverick or a competitors receiver set comes along. Tried buying one of those blow out mcabee receiver sets a few months back there at FOC but I missed out due to a error in their system that told me my order was processed but it never showed on their end. Those were a smoking deal.

 

[bargainbuyers]

I like mine as it fits easily in any farm vehicle with the 12" barrel and remains non restricted

 

[Winchester1973]

tell me about your .338 federal..... any issues or regrets?
That is exactly what I would be building if I chose a Maverick as I had already accumulated all my parts and was going to buy a stag set when the OIC came down.
I don't want to take a single penny in loss over the premium parts I bought for the potential stag build by trying to flog them in the ee...... I'll just keep them in hopes the oic is rolled back or a sale on maverick or a competitors receiver set comes along. Tried buying one of those blow out mcabee receiver sets a few months back there at FOC but I missed out due to a error in their system that told me my order was processed but it never showed on their end. Those were a smoking deal.

I was in the same position as you, I had a BCL-102, was never really impressed with BCL, I had a barrel custom made for the BCL from x-Caliber barrels out of the US, was always planning to buy a Stag receiver set and get rid of the BCL receiver, than the OIC crap came in, so I bought the Maverick and put all my good parts from my BCL into it. I have not shot it yet or my Renegade in 458 Socom, but the Renegade I built in .223 I absolutely love shooting it, that is the only reason I built the other two. I was surprised that I could like to shot a bolt action, but the straight line receivers are so much quicker to get you next shot off compared to traditional bolt action rifles

 

[beltfed]

Unless I am wildly misunderstanding the design, they are both locked breech guns so the spring pressure means nothing, as the locking lugs support the case not the spring?

Nope, I don't think you're misunderstanding the design - and I think you are correct insofar as the spring being redundant. It is there for the semi-auto bolt to return to battery after all.
Take a round and chamber it in an upper with just the carrier (in a controlled and safe fashion of course), and see what you have for lock up. If it gages properly it should be fine and I suppose theoretically and practically there should be no issues with it acting like any other straight pull action....I guess the folks in GB have been using these for some time, so if there was any issues they would have run into them.

Maybe I'm just a bit uneasy over the bolt lug design of the AR with multiple small lugs, the design of the cam action of the bolt on gas impingement - this thing was designed for auto/semi-auto use. It wasn't designed for continual us with the gas 'off'. That is my thought process anyhow.

 

[DVX]

I heard a cop call these things "ghost guns" because there's no FRT for them, and they're essentially guns you put together with non registered parts. I don't know how the law treats stuff like that. I've looked at the MK2 because of the bolt hold back, but right now, it's not worth it for me. I'll hang on to my AR and cross my fingers we get a new government.

 

[Joel]

He's privy to word from decision makers on this sort of thing? Like from a CFO etc?

Not about to defend the LPC or RCMP firearms folks by saying "that makes no sense" lol. But he's in a position to know about high level discussions on rifles?

Maybe I'm just a bit uneasy over the bolt lug design of the AR with multiple small lugs, the design of the cam action of the bolt on gas impingement - this thing was designed for auto/semi-auto use. It wasn't designed for continual us with the gas 'off'. That is my thought process anyhow.

I understand.

It seems to me in an actual AR that upon firing, the bolt thrust is straight back against the lugs. It stays that way until the carrier starts to move rearward, which only happens when gas reaches the tube and comes down into the gas key. Then the camming action to rotate the bolt and unlock it starts.

In the Renegade there shouldn't be any rearward motion of the carrier at all until you pull the handle, but I do know what you mean.

 

[45ACPKING]

I heard a cop call these things "ghost guns" because there's no FRT for them, and they're essentially guns you put together with non registered parts. I don't know how the law treats stuff like that. I've looked at the MK2 because of the bolt hold back, but right now, it's not worth it for me. I'll hang on to my AR and cross my fingers we get a new government.

ghost gun..... that cop is an idiot of grand proportions

 

[Joel]

ghost gun..... that cop is an idiot of grand proportions

I just wanna know who he heard it from. Is this his interpretation or did someone tell him this?

Cause I mean, it IS the people who banned the Mossberg 22lr as an AR variant, and Safari double rifles

 

[DVX]

I just wanna know who he heard it from. Is this his interpretation or did someone tell him this?

Cause I mean, it IS the people who banned the Mossberg 22lr as an AR variant, and Safari double rifles

He's a cop that I see from time to time at the range I go to. Someone showed up with one and he went and stood over their shoulder looking at it. I decided to see what made him so curious and we spoke to the owner. That's when he mentioned that it was made up of all non registered parts, so that's when the cop said it was basically a ghost gun. No record of it entering the country, and no FRT for it. He sounded like it was his own opinion.

 

[Joel]

Ok cool. Thanks.

I was just trying to gauge whether he knew something official from higher or if it was just some cop who has nothing to do with firearm laws take on it.

Sounds like 45ACPKING nailed it.

 

[Suther]

I understand.

It seems to me in an actual AR that upon firing, the bolt thrust is straight back against the lugs. It stays that way until the carrier starts to move rearward, which only happens when gas reaches the tube and comes down into the gas key. Then the camming action to rotate the bolt and unlock it starts.

In the Renegade there shouldn't be any rearward motion of the carrier at all until you pull the handle, but I do know what you mean.

I understand what hes getting at, but I think he is misleading himself - whether semi auto or not, the locking lugs do all the work. For the critical time period of ignition to peak pressure to pressure dropping low enough to be safe, the lugs are (or should be, assuming you've got proper headspace and whatnot) in full lock on both designs. If anything, I would say the semi-auto design is more risky, because there is at least a possibility that things will start unlocking while pressure is too high, but with a manual action I don't see it happening.

ghost gun..... that cop is an idiot of grand proportions

He's a cop that I see from time to time at the range I go to. Someone showed up with one and he went and stood over their shoulder looking at it. I decided to see what made him so curious and we spoke to the owner. That's when he mentioned that it was made up of all non registered parts, so that's when the cop said it was basically a ghost gun. No record of it entering the country, and no FRT for it. He sounded like it was his own opinion.

Next time you talk to that cop you should explain how the FRT is not a legal mechanism and is only a requirement for imports, not Canadian-made guns. In addition, I can only imagine the Renegade would have a serialized receiver. Its not registered because there is no LGR, but its very much a legal gun, sold legally, made with a part (the receiver) that you cannot buy without a license.

 

[warzaw]

ghost gun..... that cop is an idiot of grand proportions

Idiot for sure you can't buy the receiver without a PAL and the receiver has a factory stamped serial number on it . I built two 223 great way to use up parts I had kicking around and keeping what little mind I have busy.

 

[Unholysavage]

I believe the term cops use is "punishment through process". Too lazy to learn the law, let the courts sort it out.
I've had people come up to me at the range a couple of times now, telling to put away my Renegades and LPCs because they were "banned ARs". One guy refused to believe that they were NR bolt actions, even after I showed him how they operated.
Plenty of anti-gun idiots working against us, and some have their PALs...

 

[Joel]

I understand what hes getting at, but I think he is misleading himself - whether semi auto or not, the locking lugs do all the work. For the critical time period of ignition to peak pressure to pressure dropping low enough to be safe, the lugs are (or should be, assuming you've got proper headspace and whatnot) in full lock on both designs. If anything, I would say the semi-auto design is more risky, because there is at least a possibility that things will start unlocking while pressure is too high, but with a manual action I don't see it happening..

Yep exactly what I said thank you.

I've had people come up to me at the range a couple of times now, telling to put away my Renegades and LPCs because they were "banned ARs". One guy refused to believe that they were NR bolt actions, even after I showed him how they operated.
Plenty of anti-gun idiots working against us, and some have their PALs...

Sadly Scary Looking Gun syndrome is not limited to Toronto soccer moms.

 

[beltfed]

I understand what hes getting at, but I think he is misleading himself - whether semi auto or not, the locking lugs do all the work. For the critical time period of ignition to peak pressure to pressure dropping low enough to be safe, the lugs are (or should be, assuming you've got proper headspace and whatnot) in full lock on both designs. If anything, I would say the semi-auto design is more risky, because there is at least a possibility that things will start unlocking while pressure is too high, but with a manual action I don't see it happening.

I'm not misleading myself. I understand how the locking lugs work, thank-you.

Again, I'm not worried necessarily about whether the bolt lugs are strong enough to withstand the forces exerted when properly locked up in the barrel extension - because they do, obviously and work well as an auto-loader.
Part of that though is that lock up has the rearward tension from the recoil spring to keep it in battery.

Look at a typical bolt action rifle, and better yet a straight pull rifle like a K31 - the bolt rotates approximately 45 degrees to go into battery.

Now take an AR barrel and bolt and put the bolt in the barrel extension and rotate that bolt into battery - it rotates 11.25 degrees. There isn't room for error.

 

[Suther]

I'm not misleading myself. I understand how the locking lugs work, thank-you.

Again, I'm not worried necessarily about whether the bolt lugs are strong enough to withstand the forces exerted when properly locked up in the barrel extension - because they do, obviously and work well as an auto-loader.
Part of that though is that lock up has the rearward tension from the recoil spring to keep it in battery.

Look at a typical bolt action rifle, and better yet a straight pull rifle like a K31 - the bolt rotates approximately 45 degrees to go into battery.

Now take an AR barrel and bolt and put the bolt in the barrel extension and rotate that bolt into battery - it rotates 11.25 degrees. There isn't room for error.

I didn't say you don't understand how locking lugs work... But you mentioned the system was designed as a semi auto, and I was simply pointing out that regardless of semi auto operation or not, the locking lugs do the same thing. Unless someone seriously ####s up with the design or construction of the gun, it cannot fire unless the bolt is fully in battery, which means whether its 45 degrees or 10 degrees, it needs to fully rotate into the locked position, and the presence or lack of a return spring has no bearing on that.

My point is that a return spring is not going to make the design any more or less safe. The ONLY thing it will do is increase speed on follow-up shots. If you are relying on the return spring to be some sort of additional safety or something, I think you are misleading yourself as to the strength of that spring and how much use it would be in resisting the bolt from opening if it did somehow did go off out of battery. Spring or not, if you have an OOB discharge then you've got something very wrong with your gun, and that spring isn't going to help.

 

[thegazelle]

I wonder if many people who didn't have an AR before bought these? I would be all over this platform if I had a bunch of parts to throw at it, but I hesitated on finishing my AR and never got started on an upper build.

Yup, I was one of those who did not have an AR, buy this hoping for a somewhat comparable experience. The feel, weight, ergonomics are great. The straight pull action - not so much. To be quite frank, I would have been happier buying a traditional bolt action.

I am not crazy about mine. It has had a number of seating issues with various magazines. I had an opportunity at the time to buy an MKII for slightly more (got mine on a deep discount) - I probably should have gone for the newer version, but easy to say in retrospect.

 

[beltfed]

...the locking lugs do the same thing. Unless someone seriously ####s up with the design or construction of the gun, it cannot fire unless the bolt is fully in battery, which means whether its 45 degrees or 10 degrees, it needs to fully rotate into the locked position, and the presence or lack of a return spring has no bearing on that.

My point is that a return spring is not going to make the design any more or less safe. The ONLY thing it will do is increase speed on follow-up shots. If you are relying on the return spring to be some sort of additional safety or something, I think you are misleading yourself as to the strength of that spring and how much use it would be in resisting the bolt from opening if it did somehow did go off out of battery. Spring or not, if you have an OOB discharge then you've got something very wrong with your gun, and that spring isn't going to help.

Yes, therein lays the rub.

I'm convinced that the AR design, when properly executed, provides sufficient protection from OOB firing; but, rare as they are, there have been incidents where there was a question that an OOB detonation did occur.

These recent Canadian straight pull designs? I'm sceptical.
The recoil spring might have sufficient forward pressure to hold the bolt in battery, whereas a bolt and carrier without that has no such item. It is friction, interference fit of the bolt and extension lugs only.


Anyhow, it is clear to me that this discourse is going much like others' having conversations with you on this site - it's like playing chess with a pigeon in the park.

 

[Suther]

The recoil spring might have sufficient forward pressure to hold the bolt in battery....

You're still missing what I am getting at I think. If the spring was strong enough to make any difference in the safety of the design it would be ridiculously hard to run the action. There is a reason simple blowback designs aren't typically used on rifle cartridges...

Being skeptical about these novel designs, considering how new they are and the limited market they have been released to makes sense. Thinking the spring is going to do anything worthwhile with regards to keeping the bolt forward during an out of battery discharge on the other hand....

 

[Joel]

Yup, I was one of those who did not have an AR, buy this hoping for a somewhat comparable experience. The feel, weight, ergonomics are great. The straight pull action - not so much. To be quite frank, I would have been happier buying a traditional bolt action.

I am not crazy about mine. It has had a number of seating issues with various magazines. I had an opportunity at the time to buy an MKII for slightly more (got mine on a deep discount) - I probably should have gone for the newer version, but easy to say in retrospect.

Thanks for your firsthand info/take on it.

Was the straight pull action itself unreliable, or just didn't like the feel of it? And did you have any problems at all besides the seating of different mags?

They look like a cool utility rifle. Would love to have one with BUIS and an optic, and the ability to have an accessory up front like a light etc.

I have a Ruger Ranch right now but despite being an amazing shooter I just haven't quite warmed to it.


Beltfed, didn't you have a sort of OOB firing with one of these types of rifles? If so, I mean I understand the skepticism even more. I really don't find what anyone else thinks of how an AR does or doesn't operate to be worth arguing over and doubt you do either lol. But I always appreciate firsthand takes.