Thank you for that thought.
Which probably gives credence to the "Anschutz Bubble". My gunsmith asked if I wanted that added to my Remington but there was already a Harrell Tuner with a set diameter.
Thoughts on Threaded Muzzles
- Thread starter horseman2
- Start date
Thank you for that thought.
Which probably gives credence to the "Anschutz Bubble". My gunsmith asked if I wanted that added to my Remington but there was already a Harrell Tuner with a set diameter.
I think your speaking of the benchrest community. Im sure there are lots that would disagree with you on this point that shoot in other disiplines. As far as performance and not adding a thing Ill not concur. My Vudoo definately shot better groups with the brake than without it. I dont need bar graphs and all the other studies. I just shot high quality match ammo and with ten five shot groups without the brake and ten with the brake with the same ammo, well the braked groups were better. So i thought I may be prejudiced so the next three ammos were fired as follows. All the Lapua were shot without cleaning. The RWS were shot with a clean barrel and 50 shots for fouling. Barrel properly cleaned again and then all the better Eley fired. I fired 25 so 5x5 of each and my neighbour whos a world champion in archery , wins a medal in shooting guns at every shoot he enters, fired the other 5x5 groups. Not one group without the brake out shot all the groups with the brake. As far as tuners I seem to see most of the really accurate comp guns sporting them. Watch the Womfat video with Matt shooting his Vudoo 360 with SK Long Range Match in February on a rainy day. Tell me a Tuner doesnt work. THATS FIVE GROUPS ON CAMERA AT 100 YARDS. Tell me thats not impressive and we will have a whole new thread to open up. PS he kicked the loud mouth Yanks A>> with one gun
The idea that my comments are valid for benchrest shooters only is just plain wrong. Regardless of .22LR shooting discipline, the basic causes and sources of accuracy don't change.
The point that threading doesn't do anything to improve accuracy remains valid. No one threads a muzzle because that in itself produces better accuracy.
Your own personal experience with and without a brake shouldn't be taken as conclusive evidence that a brake will improve results. Small sample sizes in uncontrolled conditions by different shooters isn't sufficiently reliable to statistically support the claim. It would be necessary to shoot many more targets in controlled conditionsto generate enough data to "prove" the idea. It would be necessary to ensure ammo variation, shooter error, or wind conditions aren't factors.
Having said that, it's possible that, by a random act of convenience and nothing more, a brake on a rifle may by its extra weight work like a tuner set at a good setting and improve results. If this is the case, a different length barrel with the same brake may well have different results. After all, a tuner is essentially an adjustable weight extending past the muzzle. A brake is a fixed weight extending past the muzzle.
With regard to tuners, why would anyone tell you that a tuner doesn't work? That shouldn't be in question. When adjusted to the best setting and used with good, consistent match ammo, they do work to improve results. They don't make inconsistent ammo into consistent ammo.
Of course, one of the problems is with tuner discussions is that too many shooters conclude that a tuner is working as it should after only one or a few groups show improved results. To tune a rimfire rifle barrel with a tuner requires testing and verification with sufficient and reliable results.
My main point was, you stated the rimfires in Canada " Would not suffer from unthreaded muzzles". Thats just your opinion and coming from someone whos probably never owned one, I think your argument is very one sided. Have you actually done any testing yourself with a threaded muzzle firearm. I guess Calfee must be against threading! Granted hes a pioneer but things in life change and with new manufacturing processes, so do the guns built with this new technology. Albeit limited to the ammo available the end results always remain on LOT numbers in the rimfire game. Just some food for thought! Why has the record group at the Pennsylvania 1000 yard annual shoot shrunk in group size from over 12"s too around 2" or less. I could look up the exact specifics but dont really care. We move forward as will the manufacture of ammo and group sizes.
Anyone who is shooting 2" groups at 1000 yards with .22LR is achieving an incredible random acts of accuracy. Are you attributing such good luck to threaded .22LR muzzles?
Seriously, it's not a matter of opinion that no one threads .22LR muzzles to improve accuracy. Would it help you digest the view if someone else said what's so obviously true?
To offer an illustration that should be both blunt and clear, no one is threading muzzles to improve accuracy in the discipline of RFBR, the apex of .22LR accuracy.
There, every improvement to accuracy is utilized. As well as using only lot tested ammo in custom rigs, an abundance of wind flags, and a tremendous amount of practice, they use tuners that are clamped to the muzzles. If threading was a boost to accuracy it would be seen in wide use in RFBR competition.
Remember that accuracy is about the same thing, putting rounds where they are supposed to go -- no matter what the discipline, RFBR or something else in .22LR. As a result, it can't be contentious to note that rimfire rifles wouldn't suffer for unthreaded muzzles.
Of course, an absence of evidence shouldn't be mistaken for evidence that threading muzzles in itself doesn't enhance accuracy. However, if you are aware of or have some verifiable information that supports or proves the contention that threading a .22LR muzzle actually improves accuracy performance, .22LR shooters would be grateful and better informed.
Mystic Precision
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Look at the number of F class rifles now running tuners... all are threaded on the muzzles.
Scores at 1000yds continue to improve.
it is a tool that can help. If concerned about muzzle flare, use a large thread.... problem solved.
Jerry
Scores at 1000yds continue to improve.
it is a tool that can help. If concerned about muzzle flare, use a large thread.... problem solved.
Jerry
An absence of actually trying something which I guarantee hasnt happend makes your statements biased as youve never tested to dissprove. You constantly twist whats being said to your convenience and expect everyone to believe you. Well we actually compete on a regular basis and in every facet and discipline. We dont just shoot at one distance with our butt cheeks glued to a bench and wait for perfect conditions. We also dont pack it in like you when the weather isnt nice and use excuses that I cant get to the range. I never said a threaded muzzle was more accurate but with my two rifles the results were much better with the brakes and tuners. You can digest that any way youd like and I as well as many others dont care. Your sarcasm and Holy than thou got really old very quickly. There are those that do and those that write books about it. LOT NUMBER THAT
Regrettably, the reaction has become malicious. I hope you recover your composure.
In the meantime, I don't have any ill will toward you and wish you well as you develop your understanding of rimfire shooting.
The concern with threading a muzzle is that the muzzle may flare/"bell" out with threading.
This isn't really an issue with cut rifled barrels, button barrels are a lot more prone to this. The potential can also be mitigated by using as large a thread as possible for the contour.
This isn't really an issue with cut rifled barrels, button barrels are a lot more prone to this. The potential can also be mitigated by using as large a thread as possible for the contour.
Indeed, when set properly and used with consistent ammo, tuners can help a good barrel and good ammo improve performance.
While many serious RFBR shooters wouldn't thread a muzzle because of the risk of changing its characteristics, they can and do use tuners that aren't threaded.
As has been noted earlier in this thread, it's worth keeping in mind that the first rimfire tuners were clamp on and only relatively recently have threaded varieties become more available. Threaded muzzles aren't necessary to use a rimfire barrel tuner. It might be a safe bet to say that currently there are more clamp on tuners that are easily available to Canadian rimfire shooters than threaded rimfire tuners.
In any case, no matter how a tuner is attached to the barrel, it can help improve performance. It won't make poorly shooting ammo or inconsistent ammo into something that shoots well. That is to say, it doesn't work miracles on .22LR ammo.
At the same time, it remains true that no one threads a barrel because threading will improve accuracy.
I would assume that most people thread a barrel so they can attach a device, for some that device might be a tuner that would allow them to experiment with different harmonics for different batches or brands of ammo..... in order to... decrease group size or increase accuracy.
You keep repeating that a barrel tuner won't make plinking our hunting ammo shoot better, but I think you mean that it won't turn plinking ammo in to match ammo.... I don't understand the physics behind your claim that a barrel shooting non match grade ammo can not be tuned to decrease group sizes.
The fact that some barrels will shoot plinking ammo better then others seems to be proof that differences in barrels or harmonics does make a difference.
Clearly the chances of someone tuning their barrel with some bulk ammo to the point of winning the world championships or olympics is a pipe dream... but why do you insist tuners only work with match ammo?
A tuner may make good ammo better, and make better ammo better.
Assuming Eley Match is the better ammo, you may get TENEX results with the best MATCH.
TENEX may be the best in the Eley test rifles but I have had TENEX that was not worth the bother of trying to get it to competitive levels.
Four boxes of Lapua X-ACT proved to be a poor choice and not worth further testing.
The other four shooters using this same X-Act at a match failed to produce winning scores.
There is some skill, and some testing and a lot of luck.
The only tuners tried were all Harrell's and all were clamp on's.
If I had the chance to test a threaded tuner on my 10/22 I would but it would have to be at minimum cost.
Assuming Eley Match is the better ammo, you may get TENEX results with the best MATCH.
TENEX may be the best in the Eley test rifles but I have had TENEX that was not worth the bother of trying to get it to competitive levels.
Four boxes of Lapua X-ACT proved to be a poor choice and not worth further testing.
The other four shooters using this same X-Act at a match failed to produce winning scores.
There is some skill, and some testing and a lot of luck.
The only tuners tried were all Harrell's and all were clamp on's.
If I had the chance to test a threaded tuner on my 10/22 I would but it would have to be at minimum cost.
That's a great question.
It's possible that tuners may somewhat improve results with inconsistent ammo. But it's a fool's errand to try to tune a rimfire rifle with anything but ammo that shoots consistently well without a tuner.
The problem is that when ammo that produces inconsistent results is used, it's not possible when attempting to find the best tuner setting to know whether what's responsible for what happens on the target. Is it the ammo or is it the tuner?
For example, SK ammo varieties (even good lots) are not always consistent. They can produce ten five shot groups without a tuner that vary a great deal. When shooting at different tuner settings, how can it be known whether the results are a happy result of good ammo or not? To continue with an example, if a tuner reduces five shot groups with an SK ammo at 50 to an average of 1 MOA, it's not really significant if some of the groups are still more than .5".
On the other hand, if someone is trying to find the best tuner setting with ammo that shoots well, he can much more readily determine when results are improved by the tuner.
In the end, it's much easier and more productive to use good ammo without a tuner than to use not-so-good ammo with one. If a tuner is to be used, use ammo that can really show a difference.
Shooting lesser ammo in a good and properly tuned barrel is like using regular unleaded in a high performance car.
I agree that a less accurate or consistent round will introduce challenges and make it harder to determine the correct harmonic adjustment, the only "tuner" I have access to right now is quite crude but I'm willing to try it on all my .22lr barrels that don't have a front sight and with all kinds of ammo...
TRIGGER WARNING!! Potentially offensive low grade and cheap a s s barrel tuning option below!!
Some shooters report some improvement using the Deresonator shown above with sporter profile barrels. The trick is to find the best location for it on the barrel. The slimmer sporter barrels are more responsive to change in performance, either better or worse, by the addition of weight to the barrel.
Finding that best location is usually the product of considerable trial and error. And, as with any weight, improvements in results can only be confirmed with the use of ammo that shoots sufficiently consistently to be able to establish when it's the tuner rather than the ammo that's responsible.
Finding that best location is usually the product of considerable trial and error. And, as with any weight, improvements in results can only be confirmed with the use of ammo that shoots sufficiently consistently to be able to establish when it's the tuner rather than the ammo that's responsible.
