tiny takedown or back-packable .22?
- Thread starter manbearpig
- Start date
skeetgunner
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Burlington
Kewl!
Where d'ya get it?Where d'ya get it?Where d'ya get it?Where d'ya get it?
You buy a Henry Arms Survival Rifle, and then you add an after market stock, grip and barrel.
Although I suspect that Teclaydon's is an original Charter Arms model.
I've got the camo version. Mine seems to like dynapoints, but with that 8lb plus trigger, it patterns, not groups.
I need to find a firesite for the front blade.
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manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
thats a really cool little gun
ill admit the reason i have never bought a henry survival rifle is because with the bright silver gloss plastic they look like a dollar store toy.
are there any canadian dealers that sell aftermarket barrels and stocks for them?
ill admit the reason i have never bought a henry survival rifle is because with the bright silver gloss plastic they look like a dollar store toy.
are there any canadian dealers that sell aftermarket barrels and stocks for them?
- Location
- Coquitlam, BC
Are there any Canadian stores online that carry the Henry Survival Rifle? I am ever so interested.
I have Marlin Papoose and what I like about it is that can add a compact scope to the rifle and it doesnt take up any extra room in the bag. If you want to add a scope to a AR7, well, it wont fit in the buttstock anymore.
Trying to keep under $300 is tough, there may be other guns out there that would be suitable, such as a 16.5" Marlin 39a, but finding one under $300 will be very difficult.
Trying to keep under $300 is tough, there may be other guns out there that would be suitable, such as a 16.5" Marlin 39a, but finding one under $300 will be very difficult.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
i find it kindof strange that these 'survival rifles' are all semi-autos. wtf? shouldnt they be single shot breaks, or bolt actions for maximum reliability?
im sure people will say 'ive shot 5000 rounds through my 10/22 with never a jam', but the odds of some sortof malfunction, jam, breakage, etc are much higher than with something like a break action, no?
are there any small, takedown bolt or break action .22s?
im sure people will say 'ive shot 5000 rounds through my 10/22 with never a jam', but the odds of some sortof malfunction, jam, breakage, etc are much higher than with something like a break action, no?
are there any small, takedown bolt or break action .22s?
S.I.R. Mail Order
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_prod.php?product_id=460002&cat_id=10&subcat_id=32&PHPSESSID=6fe9d15cbc90aa3c6b5618746ddcc6ed
(black teflon)
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_prod.php?product_id=460006&cat_id=10&subcat_id=32&PHPSESSID=6fe9d15cbc90aa3c6b5618746ddcc6ed
(camo)
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_prod.php?product_id=100128&cat_id=10&subcat_id=106&PHPSESSID=6fe9d15cbc90aa3c6b5618746ddcc6ed
(Henry U.S. Survival magazines)
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/
skeetgunner
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Burlington
Check with Wolverine or Districorp in Montreal?
Ellwood Epps has them, that's where I got mine. Al Simons has them to, including the odd used original AR7's too.
The new ones are a good price and come with two eightshot magazines.
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skeetgunner
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Burlington
The blow-back design of a .22rf semi is very easy to manufacture, and to make cheap. Prime requirements for what could be a throw-away, last ditch, back to the wall gun. ie: one in every cockpit or under the seat of every hummer/jeep.
Bolt action or hinge action may be more reliable, but we're talking a difference of 99.95 vs. 99.98. Hinge action also has an ammo storage issue. And the bolt handle has storage challenges. The bolt handle on the semi telescopes into the bolt. The mag on a bolt or semi is a natural ammo storage container.
My Henry Survival is NOT a target gun....even with Lapua SC (hey, I had to try...) its only pop-can accurate at 25 yards. Which is exactly what it was designed for.
Yup.skeetgunner said:
As someone once pointed out to me, when you consider the type of use that these rifles were meant for (taking out a rabbit until you could be rescued), they were only intended to shoot a mag or two tops in their entire lifetime ...if they ever saw any use at all.
I think that many folks who buy them these days are doing so for their 'novelty' value more than anything else ...that's certainly why I purchased/mod'ed mine. It sits nice 'n pretty in its case and looks cool, but is almost never used.
But it's still neat.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
Yup.
As someone once pointed out to me, when you consider the type of use that these rifles were meant for (taking out a rabbit until you could be rescued), they were only intended to shoot a mag or two tops in their entire lifetime ...if they ever saw any use at all.
I think that many folks who buy them these days are doing so for their 'novelty' value more than anything else ...that's certainly why I purchased/mod'ed mine. It sits nice 'n pretty in its case and looks cool, but is almost never used.
But it's still neat.
kindof silly though, dont you think?
i mean in a survival situation you may be lucky to even see a single rabbit, much less at 25 yards. what if its at 60 yards? would you want to stake your life on a gun that 'may be pop can accurate at 25 yards'?
id rather have fewer rounds and an accurate, reliable gun than a semi-auto that sprays lead all over the place. one could always find room for a brick of 22 ammo, with a single shot or bolt you could even pack .22 shorts.
i really think you could make a hinge or bolt that is lighter and smaller than an auto too. perhaps there is another platform which you could build a skeletonized, lightweight but accurate .22 takedown survival gun that had a good set of sights on it.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
Savage 24 - C (Camper Model, over/under 20 gauge/.22 takedown camper gun)
i used to own a savage 24-F... great and versatile gun, but it was far from light and portable. add the weight of 12 or even 20 guage ammo and you are carrying an extra 15lbs or so.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
this is another option for those who already have a spare 10/22 kicking around or want more moddability than a henry/papoose:
butler creek 10/22 takedown 'packer' stock.
still just a heavier semi-auto that wont cycle all ammo though.
something like a light, small hinge or single shot bolt action would be ideal. craft a small .22 ramrod for it slightly longer than the barrel, and pack it along with the barrel and you have a pretty reliable survival gun. you could get fancy and drill the forend for it and make a clamp, or just electrical tape it to the barrel.
are these chipmunk rifles legal in canada? they have 16" barrels.
**edit HOLY #%@$, theyre only 2.5 lbs!
butler creek 10/22 takedown 'packer' stock.
still just a heavier semi-auto that wont cycle all ammo though.
something like a light, small hinge or single shot bolt action would be ideal. craft a small .22 ramrod for it slightly longer than the barrel, and pack it along with the barrel and you have a pretty reliable survival gun. you could get fancy and drill the forend for it and make a clamp, or just electrical tape it to the barrel.
are these chipmunk rifles legal in canada? they have 16" barrels.
**edit HOLY #%@$, theyre only 2.5 lbs!
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Here's an interesting article that covers a bit of AR-7 history:
An Unusual AR-7
Perhaps no “survival” rifle has the following of the well-known AR-7. Light, affordable, readily available to the civilian market and fun to shoot, the additional fact that this little semi-automatic takes down into a small package and stows within its own hollow buttstock has made it attractive to several generations of shooters, especially backpackers, canoeists and bush pilots.
Yet the rifle you see here isn’t your normal, run-of-the-mill AR-7. In fact, I’d bet you’ve never seen one like it before. We’ll tell you the whole story of this unusual AR-7 in a bit, but now, let’s give you a little bit of AR-7 history.
Gaston Glock rocked the gunmaking world in the 1980s with his eponymous “plastic” pistol. But another gunmaking revolution occurred three decades earlier, when Eugene Stoner proposed making firearms not out of either machined or pressed steel, but out of forged and cast aluminum. The idea of an infantry rifle or a sporting arm with a plastic or fiberglass stock and an aluminum receiver was radical thought in the early 1950s, so much so that it may be difficult for younger readers to realize the impact these designs had. But the California aerospace military-industrial complex was (and still is) a huge pool of talent, and the times themselves were a beehive of creative, innovative thinking, the likes of which we see now only in the computer fields.
Stoner went to work for a division of Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation. Fairchild set up a division to design and manufacture firearms, especially modern weapons which used aerospace manufacturing technology. The best know of these is the ubiquitous AR-15/M16/M4 family which just about anyone in the U.S. Armed services has carried since 1969.
In 1954, Stoner designed the AR-5. This was a bolt-action, magazine-fed survival rifle chambered for the .22 Hornet. Like the more familiar AR-7, the AR-5’s barrel was detachable, and the action, magazine and barrel all fit within the hollow stock. Look at one quickly, and you might mistake it for the more familiar AR-7. The AR-5 drew much attention from the Air Force, and was adopted as the MA1 Survival Rifle. Note that I say “adopted;” the Air Farce failed to follow through with a significant purchase.
Still, ArmaLite knew they had a winner. Stoner and crew quickly designed another rifle along the same general lines, but with two key differences. First, it was an all-aluminum semi-automatic. Second, it was chambered for the .22 Long Rifle. The magazine capacity jumped from four to eight, and the stock was made of plastic rather than fiberglass, and grew more rounded in the process. ArmaLite dubbed it the AR-7, and it was an immediate hit.
Like most semi-automatic .22 rifles and pistols, the AR-7 uses a pure “blowback” design—there is no mechanical locking mechanism, with only the bolt’s mass and recoil springs to hold the cartridge in the chamber until pressure has dropped to a safe level after ignition.
It doesn’t get much simpler than this. With the sideplate removed, the simplicity of the AR-7’s lockwork is easy to see.
Like the seldom-seen AR-1 Parasniper and the AR-5/MA1, the AR-7 uses a thin steel barrel liner within a thicker aluminum barrel body. ArmaLite produced the AR-7 from 1959 to mid 1973, at which time they sold the design to the now defunct Charter Arms, who produced it until they went out of business some time in the late 1980s.
After Charter met its demise, AR-7s were assembled by a variety of one-man companies—basically, the assets passed from hand to hand, and various entrepreneurs were assembling AR-7s in their garages out of old ArmaLite and/or Charter Arms parts. Eventually, though, the AR-7’s patents lapsed, and it was again produced by a variety of companies, including Henry, AR-7 Industries and Survival Arms.
All of which brings us to the little gem you see here. Most people will first notice its unusual, telescoping wire stock and the raked pistol grip. The sharp-eyed will notice the muzzle break. And the really attuned will note that the barrel is only 13.5 inches long (not counting that muzzle break).
Above, a Charter Arms AR-7, clad with period camouflage nylon tape. Below, the Israeli Pilot’s Survival Rifle.
What we have here is a special AR-7, produced by ArmaLite in Costa Mesa, California, but under a special contract. The Israeli Air Force purchased a number of these AR-7s to use as pilot-survival rifles, stowed in the seat-pan survival kits of many combat aircraft, most notably Israel’s F-4 Phantoms (another martial instrument near and dear to the hearts of many Forum members old enough to have had a draft card, remember LBJ or Tricky ####, and who have more than a little gray in their hair).
The Israelis performed a series of modifications on these already innovative rifles. They shortened the barrel and mounted a front sight based on the Kar98k Mauser (Israel had plenty of these on hand). They threw the entire ArmaLite stock away, and fabricated a small aluminum chassis that bolted into place using the original takedown bolt’s threaded hole. To this small chassis, they fit a detachable pistol grip, sourced from an FN/FAL rifle. Also facilitated by the small chassis is the telescoping wire buttstock, made from bent-and-welded 0.250-inch steel rod. In its collapsed position, the stock is four inches long. Extended and locked open, it offers a 14.5-inch length of pull.
Taken down, the Israeli Pilot’s Survival Rifle is as small as a large revolver or knife.
Like the original AR-7, the Israeli rifle uses an aluminum alloy barrel with a steel liner, the latter which can been seen clearly here.
Hebrew characters within an oval, stamped on the stock latch and chassis are the only indicators of the rifle’s life in the Middle East.
In the early 1990s, Israel decided to sell off these rifles, and a small number were brought into this country by the Bricklee Trading Company of South El Monte, California. (Briklee, now gone, also owned Federal Ordinance [aka FedOrd]. They’ve been characterized as a sort of “half surplus store, half museum” outfit. In fact, for the oddball arms buff, they were a Shangri La. It’s hard to imagine, but thirty years ago, with the cold war in at maximum temperature, things like 7.62 x 39 ammunition, SKS and Mosin-Nagant rifles and Tokarev pistols were nearly unknown and almost unobtainable in this country. Bricklee had racks of them, all stinking of exotica and intrigue.)
Because the 13.5-inch barrel was too short to meet Firearms Control Act minimums, the three-inch-long muzzle break was added, permanently lengthening the barrel to comfortable meet the federal minimum. Israeli armorers also added the barrel-mounted sling swivel, which rotates 360 degrees around the barrel.
Compared to the “normal” AR-7, the Israeli Pilot Survival version takes down even smaller, and is easier to stow since the single largest/bulkiest part (the buttstock) has been eliminated. The pistol grip needs no tools to be removed or attached; pressing a single, stout ball detent allows it to slide off or lock in place. Weight for the Israeli Pilot Survival Rifle is three pounds, four ounces, while a stock Charter Arms AR-7 tips the scales at two pounds, 11 ounces. The nine-ounce gain is due mostly to the buttstock, which is of true, rugged mil-spec construction. It’s also a testament to just how light the stock AR-7 is.
This rifle originally came with two extra eight-shot magazines in a clip-on spring-steel holder of Israeli manufacture, and a cotton-web sling. I replaced the sling with a lighter, more versatile section of one-inch flat-woven nylon webbing.
While I have both an AR-7 and the Israeli Pilot Survival Rifle (two of the latter, in fact), I find that I virtually never carry the “conventional” AR-7 now—the Israeli rifle is an improvement in every way, and balances particularly well compared to the Charter Arms unit.
Where can you get one? Good luck. The only batch I know of was imported by Bricklee in 1994, and the company is now out of business. My dated receipts show that I paid $149 each for them (and $49 for my Charter Arms AR-7 back in 1975!). Perhaps you’ll be able to turn one up at some gun show, and I suppose you can find anything on the internet now. You can fight for my two when I croak. Compared to any of the civilian-aftermarket AR-7 telescoping stocks I’ve used and owned, these are so superior as to be incomparable.
http://survival.com/IVB/index.php?showtopic=6415
It should sorta remind you of the take-down in From Russia With Love ...
I have a Henry AR-7 and, to answer manbearpig's question, it was effectively a single-shot proposition (or at least a straight-pull repeater). It's sitting now with North Sylva, and to give them their due, they & Henry covered the shipping to take it back to the factory and "repair" it to fire like a semi-automatic. I have yet to test the repairs, but I'm a trusting (and idealistic) person, so I'll just have to wait and see. I've "blooded" many non-shooters into the remarkable world of plinking with that AR-7, so hope (and love for that little gun) springs eternal.
I've heard many good things about the Papoose (called that because of the "PPS" model designation), and I would not hesitate to get one. The tube-fed Browning semi as well.
Why are many survival rifles semi's? Probably due to a military mentality
.Seriously speaking, though, many single-shot .22's can easily break-down into a few pieces for transport - the Savage 3 series and the Cooey 39 come to my mind, just to name a couple. While these rifles were almost certainly not designed as "pilot takedown rifles", they'll do the job all the same.
Okay, that's my bit.
- Location
- Coquitlam, BC
AR-7 sure looks sweet, but I would think it's harder to obtain than the Henry Survival. Is the Henry good enough for grouse?
