Tips for people new to military surplus Rifles

[Potashminer]

I agree with everything but this. You're forgetting the Enfield has a vent on the left side for the event of a case rupture. By design, gas and material vent with a harmless fart in the rare event of a case failure.

What you wrote is not really true. I just looked at a number of P14 Enfield and M1917 Enfield actions - no vents. However the one Parker Hale sporter made from an Ishapore Lee Enfield No. 1 has a vent - three little holes overlapping. And the Savage No. 4 Lee Enfield action has a vent hole. Enfield actions do NOT have a vent. Lee Enfield actions do - or at least the few that I have here, do.

 

[Painkillers]

What you wrote is not really true. I just looked at a number of P14 Enfield and M1917 Enfield actions - no vents. However the one Parker Hale sporter made from an Ishapore Lee Enfield No. 1 has a vent - three little holes overlapping. And the Savage No. 4 Lee Enfield action has a vent hole. Enfield actions do NOT have a vent. Lee Enfield actions do - or at least the few that I have here, do.

I was referring to the Lee Enfield rifles we're discussing (NoI mkIII's, No4 Mk I's and II's, it's all about context my guy.). I'm not taking a position on P14's, Sniders, or any other variations.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

I had a CNo.7 blow out a .22 rim past the extractor. I got a face full of powder. Not a .303-velocity face wash, but it was scary enough. And of all the shooting I've done, that was the only case failure I can remember experiencing.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

So technically if you took a mismatched bolt and different serialized receiver and it passed headspace and a feed test then it should operate correctly no? Maybe not acceptable for let's say a sniper or for extreme accurate but then again a Lee Enfield was made for regular soldiers so it would satisfy the accuracy requirements for a general service weapon

The number on the bolt can not match the receiver, but the two work as designed. The headspace is easy enough to measure with a hard steel precisely made gauge. As Tiriaq mentioned the locking shoulders are the unknowns. The surfaces are hidden under the receiver bridge. The one-at-a-time machinist test would be to use marking die and a series of test fits looking for smooth even engagements. In the service, that would have been a 2nd or 3rd line repair. The rifle the ordinary soldier was issued would have had its matched bolt. Quartermasters just insist on thinking that way.

The No.4(T) sniper rifle is a good example of a service rifle that was hand selected because of superior barrel quality and consistency in acceptance test firing. But, the standard was a 3" group at 100-yds and 12" at 400-yds, which isn't really all that amazing. For the ordinary soldier, he still had to pass marksmanship tests, and a misbehaving rifle would have been identified and removed from service for inspection. So in Western armies there always was a high value given to accurate rifles.

Eighty years after WW2, we have a ton of knowledge and access to so much information. We also have a very good sense of inference how armies function. The idea of 'by the book' is a very strong instinct. Regulations were (are) written to be obeyed with the weight of orders. Case in point, in the 1970s the Rhodesian Light Infantry were parachuting from DC3s on top of terrorist contacts. The Commando Sergeant Major's job included following the contact with what was called the land tail to pick up the parachutes and bring them back for inspection and packing. A high tempo was very important. You can imagine the surprise when the Commando Officer Commanding was told he didn't have any parachutes available. No jumps today or until a new delivery. I read how the Major found the stores Sergeant with a pallet of 'condemned' chutes. They were time expired according to some reference document the Sergeant produced. Yes there was a line in the manual, but it was written for the British Army and for peacetime training use rates. The OC was as livid as the Sergeant was insistent. But you can guess who won the game of Rock, Paper, Rank.

 

[kjohn]

I usually have a few milsurps on my tables at gun shows. I tell the young guys this:

"If you want to collect military surplus rifles, here's three things you need to do:

1. Do your research

2. Do your research

3. Always have cash"

I hate to say this, but some sellers at gun shows are not entirely honest about the guns they sell, maybe because they simply don't bother to do any research, and possibly because they are just plain greedy. Of course, it works both ways. Today, at the Estevan gun show, a guy was looking at my milsurps, and asked which ones were the Lee Enfields. I tapped on one old No.1 MkIII and pointed to to "refurbed" No.4's. Expert man proceeds to tell me he knows where there is one just like the No.1 that is 30-06. Hmmm. I told him I doubted that. He was adamant, after all his uncle was in the Second World War and he was a sniper. (what a surprise.) Of course the rifle in question was "down in the States". He was still talking as he walked away.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

Just a side note for comic relief!

For you guys that attend and participate in car shows too, as well as gun shows, there’s the same amount of BS there too with the spectator rookie know it alls! It’s just painful to listen to it. Or having to read it online.

The D9 Cat has to be called in for manure removal when a shovel doesn’t cut it!

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

....

....Today, at the Estevan gun show, a guy was looking at my milsurps, and asked which ones were the Lee Enfields. I tapped on one old No.1 MkIII and pointed to to "refurbed" No.4's. Expert man proceeds to tell me he knows where there is one just like the No.1 that is 30-06. Hmmm. I told him I doubted that. .....

You've heard of the average man? This was the below average man.

 

[tiriaq]

Prices of surplus rifles have gone through the roof. Used to be you give a Carcano away.
Because prices are now serious, anyone wanting to collect had best educate themselves. Learn what to look for. Recognize warning signs. Know what you are buying.

 

[bearhunter]

I am doing similar here - is a Mauser 98 receiver with a Husqvarna crest on it - so was likely made by FN in Belgium. I unscrewed the 30-06 barrel that was on it and have been fussing to install a 7x57 barrel that once was on an "Alpine" rifle - former owner had the barrel chamber deepened - I do not own a 7x57 reamer, so mucking with my lathe to get that barrel screwed on to correct headspace. The barrelled action showed up with no bolt - so I am using a "sporter" bolt - probably from a Parker Hale rifle at one time - I started the process by checking and lapping those bolt lugs to that receiver - when I started, only one lug was touching to its seat in the receiver.

In a Dave George book here about Boer War - apparently was not uncommon for Boer fighters to abscond with a turned down carbine bolt to use in their long infantry style rifles - just replaced the bolt and used it - no evidence of any checks or fussing - seems to have generally worked out for them. Of course, is probably no records, nor would we be reading about instances when it did NOT work out.

View attachment 757441

There should be a picture above showing what is likely a Boer rifle from the 1899-1902 War. The receiver and the bolt have different serial numbers. Were made by Leowe in 1896 and shipped to a Boer state - appears to be of the pattern of 1893 patent by Paul Mauser. Both serial numbers were used on rifles made about the same time - that bolt's number was on a carbine rifle, and this rifle itself was an infantry style - which would have had a straight handle bolt. I have no clue if the bolt was swapped out when in action, or during the many decades since that War and now. I have not yet fired it. I have no clue if both lugs bear or not - my intent is to maybe fire it one day, with really "mild" 7x57 hand loads - that is "mild", as in what could be handled by the single lug Norwegian Krag rifles.

There are a lot of South American Mauser rifles with mismatched bolts. Rumors are floating around about how this came about.

When the troops were in the field, and they stacked their piling swivels, they removed the bolts. When they grabbed a rifle during emergency drills, they just grabbed the closest rifle to hand and used the bolt in their pockets.

They had an issue with their rifles being stolen by some of the indigenous folks and this put a stop to it or made them useful only as clubs.

 

[jakester]

What you wrote is not really true. I just looked at a number of P14 Enfield and M1917 Enfield actions - no vents. However the one Parker Hale sporter made from an Ishapore Lee Enfield No. 1 has a vent - three little holes overlapping. And the Savage No. 4 Lee Enfield action has a vent hole. Enfield actions do NOT have a vent. Lee Enfield actions do - or at least the few that I have here, do.

I just checked my P14 and M1917. Both have vents, they are on the right side of the receiver ring on these models. Yours should have them as well, although they may be plugged with grease or something...

 

[can14]

The US National Guard stored the guns without the bolts in them for security
That is why M14 bolts have numbers on them
they issued the gun and gave you the bolt numbered to it
All armories pretty well did this so that is the miss match reason not packing a bolt and grabbing a rifle in the field
Your rifle was issued to you by serial number and you were responsible for it

 

[Potashminer]

^ There was a time and place for both. USA M1917 did not have a serial number on their bolt - as per the Charles Stratton book here - I do not know how they ID'd a particular bolt to a particular receiver - maybe they did not care. When those same rifles were sold or given to Great Britain or Canada, armourers got busy and stamped serial numbers on the bolts after they were "fitted", or at least "checked" for fit. So is possible to get a serial numbered WWI USA rifle, with no number on the bolt handle, if it was owned continuously by USA military for its entire existence. Could also be a "spare" bolt - I do not know how they made the difference, except possibly on the inspection / approval stampings. Same USA Army, but a couple wars earlier from the M14 rifle. The end of the Second Boer War was 13 (?) years before the start of WWI. Unlike in most other countries, the rifles issued to a Boer fighter became his private property - was not "owned" by the gov't or to be returned to them.