Title changed x2: Grey Birch Customer Service, and Fusion Incredible

Beeron said:
kombatkyle,

I have a couple things to offer. In the interest of harmony, what follows is my OPINION based on MY experience (I tend to wax hyperbolic occasionally) and I do not mean it to sound haughty, even if it does.

1. First of all, putting good barrel on an old receiver (As others have said) is kind of shooting yourself in the foot. The receiver is foundational to the performance of any barrel. Also has been stated, the V block is Old Tech.

2. I shoot mostly precision 22lr and I get excellent groups out of my stock CZ 457 Varmint (granted it is sitting in an extremely good MDT Chassis, also made in Canada) with a variety of match ammo but i ALWAY, ALWAYS, ALWAYS allow the barrel to get used to the lube on the new ammo before I ever track a group. These are known as Fouling rounds and are super important. The only exceptions to this are SK and Lapua (both made by Lapua) use the same lube and in my experience, very little is required to switch to RWS as well as I think their lube is similar. Some of the rounds you may have shot might have had copper jackets which for me, is a huge no no in my rimfire guns as it results in copper fouling which is bad enough in large bore rifles but takes a long time and a lot of rounds to clear out of a 22. I never shoot copper in my guns, EVER! Apart from a firmly mounted barrel, the most important thing in accuracy (remember that accuracy equals repeatability) is consistent loads and in match ammo, what you pay for is QUALITY CONTROL. brass, Lead, and powder are all priced much the same. Even a coupe grains of powder make up a much larger percentage of a 22 load than they do in a 308 for example so it really counts.

For practice and plinking, I am currently working through a few bricks of RWS Target Rifle which shoots 1 hole groups at 50 all day, well under an inch at 100, and I can somewhat reliably shoot groups under 5" at 300 yards (better when I get a good wind read). It's not as good as Eley Match or RWS 50 or Lapua Center X but it is a LOT cheaper and readily available at tenda, tesro, etc..

All but the Eley you mentioned would never ever be put into one of my guns. CCI makes a good semi-auto pistol round in my experience but I would never hope to shoot groups. Remington make a nice shotgun and a great platform in centre-fire rifles but their ammo is garbage IMO, likewise Winchester. Match ammo only please. If it comes loose in a box of 300 or more, it's not good ammo and you can't expect it to group. The exception to this is SK Magazine which is hard to find dammit. I think Eley might also do loose bulk ammo. So OK, if it's Match ammo and it's loose..........lol

3. Finally and IMPORTANTLY for this thread, I have to give a huge Shout Out to the folks at Grey Birch who have provided me with much higher customer service than I could have expected or, frankly, deserved. They completely looked after me when it was me who messed up. By today's or any standard, I am super impressed. It has been a long time since I have experienced customer care like that. I am absolutely thrilled with my Fusion 16.1 and I eagerly await my fusion RDR (12.5") which I ordered just in time back in May.
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The internet is filled with folks who have got amazingly accurate v-block 10/22s... so i don't think that is the core issue. Its a challenge, but match quality barrels have made for some impressive results. Even some stock 10/22s shoot insanely well if you hit the 10/22 lottery.

GB's approach to the v-block problem (removing it entirely) is awesome, i would assume it doesn't get any better than that in terms of the 10/22, but its not the only way.

In terms of ammo... I usually buy in bulk when i see good prices, and tend to shoot volume over precision. I dont necessarily need to see teenie tiny 50/100yd groups, but a squirrel/grouse head is ~1.5" and i need at least that. I got a bunch of bricks of that golden bullet ammo when it was insanely cheap a few months ago (i think i paid like $29/500rnds), it shoots pretty nicely in that CZ so i assumed it wasn't terrible, but i dont think ill get it again. Its a brass "washed" bullet, thinner than a jacket, but im not sure what benefit the brass has and i likely wont put anything other than lead down any of my .22 barrels going forward.

Finally, im very glad to hear your fusion review. I was excited when i ordered my GB barrel, and man was it pretty, but i was let down by the performance. I'm just as excited again to get ahold of the fusion system. All of the GB products *look* amazing to me, the CZ might land in one of those snazzy La Chassis' when i start dumping money into that rig.

New product idea @grey birch, I've only found 1 option for a new trigger (just the trigger/shoe itself) for the 10/22 and the price is a little obnoxious. If you guys designed a drop in trigger with some different profiles/colors for the 10/22 platform, that would be awesome. Flat face, possibly with some texture, in some cool colors like red or that GB thread protector blue.
 
kombatkyle said:
New product idea @grey birch, I've only found 1 option for a new trigger (just the trigger/shoe itself) for the 10/22 and the price is a little obnoxious. If you guys designed a drop in trigger with some different profiles/colors for the 10/22 platform, that would be awesome. Flat face, possibly with some texture, in some cool colors like red or that GB thread protector blue.
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New trigger is on the way with a very cool ambi safety.
 
Appologizing on the forum for my hateful posts of Grey Birch. Received a very truthful PM by one of the owners and Ive carried hatred over from the old NEF. I have had some bad experiences with some of the early products and jumped to the conclusion that it was gonna be the same. Well Im wrong and theyre standing behind theyre products! Great on them and hopefully they continue to support the canadian market and shooting community. As painful as it will be I may even buy one of their Fusion LDR and do a build and review. Matts gun is obviously performing. Tonys is also and I put it together but Canadian is better, even if in Florida. I really appreciated the honesty in his PM and Im at peace with him. I want to thank him for the honesty and a different look on the whole situation. I wish all of you well in your new venture. My order will be coming. Cheers Chris
 
Do people really expect fantastic accuracy from a 10-22? Because it's a Ruger? I had one years ago and until I spent a fortune on it, it wasn't any better than an old Cooey. Then I got super accuracy After spending a fortune on it. Now I use a Savage MK11FV for well under $400 and it's accuracy is uncanny. The 10-22 is a great reliable, dependable rifle but not a bench rest but a money pit chasing constant MOA.
 
Longstud said:
Appologizing on the forum for my hateful posts of Grey Birch. Received a very truthful PM by one of the owners and Ive carried hatred over from the old NEF. I have had some bad experiences with some of the early products and jumped to the conclusion that it was gonna be the same. Well Im wrong and theyre standing behind theyre products! Great on them and hopefully they continue to support the canadian market and shooting community. As painful as it will be I may even buy one of their Fusion LDR and do a build and review. Matts gun is obviously performing. Tonys is also and I put it together but Canadian is better, even if in Florida. I really appreciated the honesty in his PM and Im at peace with him. I want to thank him for the honesty and a different look on the whole situation. I wish all of you well in your new venture. My order will be coming. Cheers Chris
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Might suggest you delete some of those tantrum posts you made in hindsight...? Jeff (Grey Birch CGN rep) has been incredible on here for me, and if you pop open his profile and have a look at his other posts - he's very active on the forum offering opinions and advice on all sorts of posts. He's not just shilling Grey Birch, and he's not pure business and only posting ads. He's a contributing member of the community here, and a genuinely good dude.
 
lyman54 said:
Do people really expect fantastic accuracy from a 10-22? Because it's a Ruger? I had one years ago and until I spent a fortune on it, it wasn't any better than an old Cooey. Then I got super accuracy After spending a fortune on it. Now I use a Savage MK11FV for well under $400 and it's accuracy is uncanny. The 10-22 is a great reliable, dependable rifle but not a bench rest but a money pit chasing constant MOA.
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I've had nothing but poor experiences with savages. I don't own one, but i've shot several and never not had some kind of problem. I also despise the "accutrigger" they've got on every single model. The ruger 10/22s are crazy reliable, and some of them are truely impressive out of the box (but it's a bit of a lottery). They're the tinkerer's .22 though, the aftermarket is huge. They're the AR-15 of .22s, the lego of .22s, they're meant for customization. The v-block is one of their greatest downfalls, and Grey Birch has neutralized that problem entirely with their design. I have high hopes for it, it's in the mail - i'll report back as soon as I get it put together.
 
kombatkyle said:
I've had nothing but poor experiences with savages. I don't own one, but i've shot several and never not had some kind of problem. I also despise the "accutrigger" they've got on every single model. The ruger 10/22s are crazy reliable, and some of them are truely impressive out of the box (but it's a bit of a lottery). They're the tinkerer's .22 though, the aftermarket is huge. They're the AR-15 of .22s, the lego of .22s, they're meant for customization. The v-block is one of their greatest downfalls, and Grey Birch has neutralized that problem entirely with their design. I have high hopes for it, it's in the mail - i'll report back as soon as I get it put together.
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The Savage A22 is a pretty solid rifle. As for V Blocks...... That design was the Bain of our existence.
 
Vladthepes said:
...the barrel is probably too short. A .22 LR need at least 16 inches barrel to stabilize the bullets!
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How do .22 handgun competitions exist? If you look at velocity data, you can get nearly all the beans out of a .22 round in a ~12" barrel. You can get peak velocity out of a 14". Shorter barrels tend to be stiffer (imagine holding a 6' length of deck board vs a 12' one, the 12' will bow) and less likely to be affected by/need tuning for harmonics. One of the biggest factors for .22 (or any bullet for that matter) 'stability' is when the bullet passes through the sound barrier (either on acceleration or deceleration). This is just my limited research/knowledge, i'm sure others could explain in even greater detail.

Edit: see here some interesting barrel length vs velocity data: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html near peak velocity realized with most ammo out of the 12", often even as low as 9/10", note that Dlask makes/sells aftermarket barrels in that length and they are very reputable and knowledgeable about .22LR

Edit x2: see here the speed of sound (sound barrier) relative to different temps: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-speed-sound-d_603.html i think that often long range .22LR shooters choose subsonic ammo or use a barrel length that ensures whatever ammo they are using stays beneath the sound barrier for the duration of its flight so as to maintain stability. .22LR slows down exponentially quick in open air and its easier keep it below the speed of sound for the duration of its flight than it is to try and keep it above it. Center bore .22 cal like .224 and .223(5.56) defeat this problem by keeping the bullets above the speed of sound for the duration of their flight. The reason .223 (AR-15) ammo is basically never commercially available as "subsonic" (like commonly commercially available subsonic .22LR or .300blk) is because you can get those velocities from .22LR and you'd be effectively shooting extremely expensive .22LR. .300blk exists/works by flinging a massive piece of lead (relative to the .22cal) at subsonic speeds, which is devastating to squishy targets relative to .22 cal bullets.

Last edit: If you want to punch ammo velocities into this calculator (i've got velocitors in there when you open it, with weather data for Edmonton at the time of posting): https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?pl=22LR+CCI+Velocitor+HP+40gr&presets=30-06+Springfield%7E30-06+180gr+Sierra+Matchking%7EG1%7E0.475%7E180%7E2750%7E100%7E1.5%7E0%7E10%7E90%7E%7E0%7E59%7E29.92%7E50%7E1%7E1000%7E25&df=G1&bc=0.132&bw=40&vi=1335&zr=50&sh=2&sa=0&ws=0&wa=90&cfa=on&alt=2116&tmp=57&bar=30&hum=67&ssb=on&cr=300&ss=10&chartColumns=Range%7Eyd%60Elevation%7Ein%60Elevation%7EMOA%7EFBFFF5%60Elevation%7EMIL%60Windage%7Ein%60Windage%7EMOA%7EFBFFF5%60Windage%7EMIL%60Time%7Es%60Energy%7Eft.lbf%60Vel%5Bx%2By%5D%7Eft%2Fs&lbl=22LR+CCI+Velocitor+HP+40gr&submitst=+Create+Graph+ it will show you exactly what range a supersonic round will cross the sound barrier on decel, potentially having a large effect on stability/accuracy. I used the BBTI velocity out of 12" here.
 
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kombatkyle said:
I've had nothing but poor experiences with savages. I don't own one, but i've shot several and never not had some kind of problem. I also despise the "accutrigger" they've got on every single model. The ruger 10/22s are crazy reliable, and some of them are truely impressive out of the box (but it's a bit of a lottery). They're the tinkerer's .22 though, the aftermarket is huge. They're the AR-15 of .22s, the lego of .22s, they're meant for customization. The v-block is one of their greatest downfalls, and Grey Birch has neutralized that problem entirely with their design. I have high hopes for it, it's in the mail - i'll report back as soon as I get it put together.
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Very reliable with a great mag. As I said putting money into them will give you a fine and accurate rifle. Best of luck with yours.
 
lyman54 said:
Very reliable with a great mag. As I said putting money into them will give you a fine and accurate rifle. Best of luck with yours.
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I know a lot of folks love savages and i'm sure they're not all bad, i've just personally experienced 3 different (centerfire) ones that all had constant light strikes, jamming and trigger issues. I don't know enough about how those guns were taken care of to say if that had anything to do with it - but I've yet to be impressed by one and i just generally dislike those accutriggers they put on all of them.
 
Well here it is. I was away for work for quite some time and got home to the goodies from Grey Birch. The fit and finish on this Fusion receiver/barrel combo is fantastic, no crown issues on this one and everything looks and *feels* like quality.

I gave the bore a quick brass brushing and some dust/powder poofed out of it? Manufacturing leftovers or some kind of wax/protectant? Corrosion? No idea. Hit it with a couple wet patches, dry patches, then slapped it all together. Put my dumpy $100 Simmons .22 scope on it while I sort rings for my better glass. Sighted in with CCI SV, and without further ado - here are my 50yd, 5 shot groups:



To keep it consistent with my previous posts, I used the same CZ457 I was using as a benchmark. I gave that barrel a scrub, seasoned and sighted in on the exact same lot of CCI SV and here are a couple groups:




The squares are 1"x1" with little splatter (1/2"?) dots in the centers. I would say it's awfully close to being an MOA rifle now. I can't wait to stretch it out to 100yds and beyond.

Suffice to say, I am extremely pleased with the Grey Birch system. The customer service from Jeff is legendary, the gun is excellent. I will absolutely be in the market for more GB gear in the future.
 
lyman54 said:
Do people really expect fantastic accuracy from a 10-22? Because it's a Ruger? I had one years ago and until I spent a fortune on it, it wasn't any better than an old Cooey. Then I got super accuracy After spending a fortune on it. Now I use a Savage MK11FV for well under $400 and it's accuracy is uncanny. The 10-22 is a great reliable, dependable rifle but not a bench rest but a money pit chasing constant MOA.
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Agreed! If you are looking for great accuracy from a factory Ruger 10/22, keep looking. Factory Ruger triggers are crap and their factory barrels are not much better. A few years back I bought a Ruger SR-22, factory accuracy was not great as to be expected. I did various upgrades, match barrel, Kidd 2 stage trigger, Dlask bolt, etc. yes it did improve the accuracy greatly BUT still not in the same league as my factory, CZ/BRNO or Anschutz rifles. Yes there are high $$$ modded 10/22’s that may rival a bolt action but IMO if accuracy is the main priority, just buy a quality bolt action.
 
Hunter7 said:
Agreed! If you are looking for great accuracy from a factory Ruger 10/22, keep looking. Factory Ruger triggers are crap and their factory barrels are not much better. A few years back I bought a Ruger SR-22, factory accuracy was not great as to be expected. I did various upgrades, match barrel, Kidd 2 stage trigger, Dlask bolt, etc. yes it did improve the accuracy greatly BUT still not in the same league as my factory, CZ/BRNO or Anschutz rifles. Yes there are high $$$ modded 10/22’s that may rival a bolt action but IMO if accuracy is the main priority, just buy a quality bolt action.
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Just buy one of the complete Grey Birch 10/22s and be done with it. That barrel nut makes all the difference i think.
 
Our Fusion system with either our bolt our a Kidd bolt will keep pace with any of the factory CZ / Tikka bolt guns.
 
kombatkyle said:
The barrel wasn't super impressive to look at straight out of the package... I had to lightly file off quite a bit of burring at the ejector slot... The crown is pretty not-nice looking for such a pricy barrel, but i can't see that having such a drastic effect, and now with the recent good groups i'm at a loss for what to try next.
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Seriously , a very poor customer service,, i try to reach grey birch since one month, no return yet....

I ordered a longer forend from their website for my chassis... the colour is far off... than my chassis.....

Not the first time i have hard time with this business.

Good luck.....
 
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