Trailboss Vs Unique in antiques

H Wally

H Wally

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First off, I know I could post this in the reloading section, but I'm hoping to target antique owners, since this is specific to firing older antique guns.

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EDIT - I rethought my question after posting

I am looking for a powder that can be bulk, or volumetrically measured into blackpowder cartridges, specifically 44 russian and 455 webley. The idea would be to either A) simply fill a case to a certain point and load the bullet, or B) measure a charge by weight, and then find out what rough approximate volume that would be and afterwards use a variable volumetric measure set for that amount.

My requirements are:
1) The powder be non-corrosive
2) The powder be safe for volumetric reloading

I am open to any and all suggestions as long as it meets those two requirements

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The original post:


I have limited experience with both IMR's Trail Boss and Alliant's Unique powders and am curious about CGN'ers' opinions of them.

I've always adhered closely to loadings and kept my loads as conservative as possible with my antiques. I am however looking for a powder that can be reloaded a bit more loosely (more along the lines of black powder) since I have gotten in the habit of reloading some single shot cartridges by hand at the range with black powder. This is quite convenient and rather fun, but I would prefer to not use black powder on some of my guns.

So, recognizing that this would only be used on 455 and 44 russian cartridges with fully seated bullets in solid functional antiques, is either powder bulky enough to load with a set volumetric measure rather than a scale and not risk over pressure cartridges?

To rephrase in a different way for more clarity, if a certain safe load of weighed powder of either Unique or Trail Boss were found to shoot well in an antique revolver chambered in 455 or 44 russian and were then transferred to a volumetric measure, would you consider it safe to then measure subsequent charges with the volumetric measure set at that measurement, or slightly below it, with the bullet seated down on the charge without an air gap etc. If it would be safe, which powder would you choose and why (volume, low peak pressure, volatility etc etc etc).


For bonus points, what're your loads for 455 or 44 russian using unique or trail boss loads?
 
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H Wally said:
Never heard of it - if it's available and fits the bill better than unique or trail boss I'd consider it. Any experience with it?
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unfortunately I have not tried it yet but I'v heard its a good product. Its on the pricey side and is produced in Canada "I think".

I will be trying to locate some soon though, want to try it in my Mle 1892.

Hopefully some experienced members can chime in.
 
Having never used Trail Boss, I have no opinion.

Unique, however, I would never risk to bulk measure.
It builds pressure quickly with small increases in charge weight.
Eg; 45AR/245swc in a Webley Mk1.. ... 5 grains is a good shooting, comfortable load. 5.5 grains is too hot for my comfort. Plus or minus .1 grain from 5gr is where she stays most accurate too, and it's doubtfull to be staying that close to the mark with a dipper/measure IMO.

An air gap between powder and bullet base is not a problem with smokeless, as far as I know.
In fact, testing has shown less peak pressure and better accuracy by seating the bullets out.

After many hundreds of test loads, unique VS. Alliant 2400 ... 2400 wins for me. It's far more forgiving, gives higher vels. at equal pressures, and also equals the Unique's accuracy. Fills the case much more too, not much chance of a double charge going unnoticed!.
2400 works best with heavier bullets, 215 gr is the lightest ive gotten results with.
Oh yeah, ... it burns very, very dirty at these low pressures.
10 grains under a 215gr is a nice load. Worked up over the chrono to about 750fps.

That Blackhorn 209 sounds interesting, can't wait to hear more.
 
vviking said:
Having never used Trail Boss, I have no opinion.

Unique, however, I would never risk to bulk measure.
It builds pressure quickly with small increases in charge weight.
Eg; 45AR/245swc in a Webley Mk1.. ... 5 grains is a good shooting, comfortable load. 5.5 grains is too hot for my comfort. Plus or minus .1 grain from 5gr is where she stays most accurate too, and it's doubtfull to be staying that close to the mark with a dipper/measure IMO.

An air gap between powder and bullet base is not a problem with smokeless, as far as I know.
In fact, testing has shown less peak pressure and better accuracy by seating the bullets out.

After many hundreds of test loads, unique VS. Alliant 2400 ... 2400 wins for me. It's far more forgiving, gives higher vels. at equal pressures, and also equals the Unique's accuracy. Fills the case much more too, not much chance of a double charge going unnoticed!.
2400 works best with heavier bullets, 215 gr is the lightest ive gotten results with.
Oh yeah, ... it burns very, very dirty at these low pressures.
10 grains under a 215gr is a nice load. Worked up over the chrono to about 750fps.

That Blackhorn 209 sounds interesting, can't wait to hear more.
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Hmmk - so unless someone challenges that, Unique's out of the running for a volumetrically measured powder. I have read on another forum that trail boss can be measured by volume, but also in the same post that it is mildly corrosive. I have no idea about the legitimacy of the writer so don't know whether to trust either, both, or none of his claims:rolleyes:

The only issue I see with the blackhorn is that it's very scarce, and double the price of other powders. If it is the only powder to meet my requirements I'll try to hunt it down, but I'd rather not have to choose a powder that's as rare as unicorn farts to make them function.
 
I would not measure any true smokeless powder in the manner which you are describing. Trailboss possibly can be measured volumentricaly in the fashion that you describe but it is unusual as smokeless powders go. You would be far better off to simply buy a powder thrower which does work volumetrically and also gives very replicable charges. You would also require a powder scale of some form to set up the powder thrower

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
I would not measure any true smokeless powder in the manner which you are describing. Trailboss possibly can be measured volumentricaly in the fashion that you describe but it is unusual as smokeless powders go. You would be far better off to simply buy a powder thrower which does work volumetrically and also gives very replicable charges. You would also require a powder scale of some form to set up the powder thrower

cheers mooncoon
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I can agree with you on using a powder scale and thrower, but in this instance I'm thinking of scenarios where carrying a scale and powder thrower around doesn't work. A small powder measure is a lot less likely to get damaged being packed up on a logging road in the middle of winter on a trailer behind a snowmobile over 14k of very bumpy road than sensitive measuring tools. Hence my curiosity about using a volumetric tools... it's not ideal, but it may be the only solution the situation. I could reload a ton of ammo before going out into the wild beyond, but sometimes I only end up with enough time once I'm out there:p

zuke said:
It isn't corrosive.
Go to the Trail Boss website and have a look at it,it tell's you how to figure out your load's.
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Do you have personal experience with it being non corrosive? I haven't shot enough of it through guns I'm willing to test it on to tell for myself. Normally I'd be inclined to just believe the manufacturer, but several of these "blackpowder replacements" are called non-corrosive, yet are supposed to be cleaned immediately, and some are in fact corrosive despite claims, hence my question.

I'll check the trail boss website again - thanks for the tip!

EDIT - found it on the website, might be useful for someone thinking along similar lines. Looks like it can be roughly measured, since they suggest using maximum case capacity to determine maximum load.
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
 
Are you familiar with coin envelopes? I use my powder thrower to throw charges into envelopes. They can be taken to the rnage in a small box, or in my shirt pocket. By folding out the flap and pinching the envelope, it pours powder easily into a barrel or revolver cylinder.

And you can write the powder charge on the envelope. I have been using the same envelopes for 40 years.
 
Blackthorn is a repro black powder, which means that it usually has issues, Trailboss is not a replacement for black, it is simply a very bulky smokeless powder meant for CAS type loads which usually fill the case so there is no worry about double charging.
 
I use Trail Boss. I shoot it in .45 Colt, and .44-40 when I am not shooting black powder. It is loaded by weight just like any other smokeless powder. It is fluffier then most powders, and it is hard to double charge. Filling the case would not be very safe I would think.
It is not black powder.

Why not use black powder?
 
Ganderite said:
Are you familiar with coin envelopes? I use my powder thrower to throw charges into envelopes. They can be taken to the rnage in a small box, or in my shirt pocket. By folding out the flap and pinching the envelope, it pours powder easily into a barrel or revolver cylinder.

And you can write the powder charge on the envelope. I have been using the same envelopes for 40 years.
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That's a good idea - I'd be inclined to use it if I was short on cases but had the time to do my measuring.

Unfortunately, the issue with that is it requires that I have time to measure the loads before heading out. The situation I'm dealing with means that generally I don't have time to prep an adequate amount of ammo before leaving and end up simply make it on the spot out doors. I know that I should get my act together ahead of time, but in these instances the problem is that my life is inconsistant enough that stuff just pops up. Sometimes it does so before I've had time to reload. As a consequence if I want to shoot, I have to do my reloading wherever I end up, and often that place is NOT ideal for reloading. A couple examples of this are a week long backpacking trip on the west coast, and a 14k ride on a snowmobile and then 5k snowshoe... we spent part of that trip in a cabin, part of it in quincies (snow shelters). And we aren't talking the eastern canada pansy touring sled flat ground sledding either ;). In both scenarios I had enough time to throw a hand full of cases, a packet of primers and some cast bullets into a bag, along with a tin of black powder before heading out. On the west coast hike I only shot once because we generally made camp in the dark and it would be too much of a PITA to try to clean a gun free of blackpowder fouling in a pot by the stream in the dark using freezing cold water. However if it had been shot with a non-corrosive powder I could have oiled it in my tent by flashlight. On the snow camping trip I shot a couple times and spent some miserable hours dealing with the mess each time.

Olof said:
I use Trail Boss. I shoot it in .45 Colt, and .44-40 when I am not shooting black powder. It is loaded by weight just like any other smokeless powder. It is fluffier then most powders, and it is hard to double charge. Filling the case would not be very safe I would think.
It is not black powder.

Why not use black powder?
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Because black powder requires a gun to be extensively cleaned withing a couple of days after use at maximum, sooner being better. The situation I'm thinking of is one in which hot water is limited to one pot full per time required to heat it, and all water is under a layer of ice. I'm talking winter at my cabin.... it sucks for reloading. None of the conditions are condusive for cleaning or fine reloading work and I spend long enough up there that I usually run out of ammo and the trip out is too far to make it worth while. The trip in usually breaks any glassware and anything else not packed in 12 layers of styrofoam and foam chips. I'm sure I could get a powder scale up there, but it's a colossal PITA and if there's a non-corrosive powder that could just be used instead it would simplify the whole prossess by a huge degree.

Until now I've used black powder and it simply isn't worth it to shoot in those conditions. The amount of water required is too much when you have to get it from a frozen over lake, carry it to your cabin, and then warm it up on a wood stove just so it'll be warm enough to put your hands in without your hands going numb. Other problems include water freezing to the barrel while cleaning it inside, splashed water freezing on the floor, and my left hand turning slightly blue from fishing out parts from the water bucket. If that isn't a strong reason for looking for a non corrosive black powder replacement, I don't know what is! :p

I should say as well, in the situations I have had pre made reloads available and on hand things were great. Went out for a snow shoe, did some shooting, poked around, shot some more, came back to camp, things were A-ok..... until I ran out of ammo. Then it sucked.
 
Why not just get a set of those little Lee dippers, figure out which one you need..... and carry that one to the range or wherever?

Other alternative is to make a custom measure which can be dipped into a catfood tin of powder, then knock off the top. For a fast powder, if that's what you want to use, you might get away with a .32 Auto case with a handle soldered onto it.
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I have fed my 38 sp SAA hundreds of Trailboss loaded rds, seems to work well with no corrosion issues.
As far as ad hoc charge containers, I just use Zig Zag rolling papers, spun up around a loaded 38-55 or 45-70 cartridge. Spin, lick and stick; slide off the bullet end slightly and twist it closed. Pour your charge in the open end and twist it closed.
Whites burn up fast with no residue; Blues are waterproof and much thicker...we used to call them Horseblankets. You are best utilizing this with bigger charges; say 60 to 110. It probably would work with smaller as well I suppose.
 
smellie said:
Why not just get a set of those little Lee dippers, figure out which one you need..... and carry that one to the range or wherever?

Other alternative is to make a custom measure which can be dipped into a catfood tin of powder, then knock off the top. For a fast powder, if that's what you want to use, you might get away with a .32 Auto case with a handle soldered onto it.
.
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It can really depend on the powder, the cartridge and the firearm....:redface:...for example :yingyang: , the smallest Lee dipper I've seen (the 0.3 cc one) still packs something like 2.2 grains of IMR-700X (or 2.7 grains of Unique) - a load that is still too hot for reloading the .320-calibre British Bulldogs ! :(

For that matter, a .22 LR casing seems to hold a very similar amount of powder, so I'm still looking at other potential solutions for "custom/quick measures" for certain antiques....

As a generality, though, the 0.3 cc Lee dipper seems just right for the "Lebel" 8mm revolver loads, and the 0.5 one is handy for decently recoiling Webley loadings.....;)
 
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I think you would be wise to only use light loads under the circumstances you are describing. The pressure curve for smokeless goes exponential as the charge increases above roughly 40,000 psi. Point being is that if you are loading to medium or high levels, it would not take much compaction of the powder in the powder scoop to put you into a pressure range that was unsafe for an old handgun. I also don't think that shells loaded using a scoop are overly accurate
Trail Boss is the only powder that might be safe under your circumstances because I don't think it ever gives particularly high pressures. There was an article in the double gun journal about 1 year ago with a fellow checking rifle pressures and TB and using a pressure gun.

cheers mooncoon
 
IMR's position on Trail Boss is that the maximum load for any given cartridge is a load that comes right up to the base of the bullet, *without compressing* the charge. The minimum load is 80% of the maximum load.

Therefore, Trail Boss could kinda-sorta be loaded volumetrically, at least, for modern cartridges. I'd probably find a Lee scoop to use. It works very well in the 44 magnum and 500 S&W - but neither of these are antiques, and both are capable of pressures much much higher than the 455. Still, there's no indication whatsoever that even maximum charges of Trail Boss causes anything other than very very low pressures. Cases were sooty, and the recoil - feels more like you're lobbing a chunk of lead downrange than shooting it.
 
You can make very mild loads for antiques with Trailboss. I'm using it in my S&W Schofield. I would do some experimenting with a dipper and a scale and see how much variation is capable in weight. Trailboss being so light, it might have more potential variation in mass, when measured by volume.
 
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