Trophy Hunting vs Meat/Subsistence Hunting

[c-fbmi]

pedestelizing

It is interesting how the Trophy hunter puts himself on a pedestal so high that us mere mortal men will never be able to reach those lofty heights.

Quite the contrary, all I ask is the same respect you may give another table hunter. I do not put myself on a pedestel at all, I just vehemently love my past time of trophy hunting. I allow you the respect of table hunting, and I understand the entire mentality behind it, it's as old as man himself. I did not mean to denegrate the table hunter, as I fish, shoot non trophy grouse, I hunt non trophy rabbits and quite often I hunt non trophy cariboo for grub. But my passion is out in the mountains hunting a 11" billy goat or a 42" ram or a 100 lb elephant. To say meat hunting is the "lowest form of opportunistic predation" is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. Table hunters are functioning as do wolves, coyotes, cougars etc. This is a whole different level of predation, with a whole different motivation driving it. I fully understand and agree with it, all I ask is give me the same respect I allow you.
I'm not the enemy, I'm your brother with a different reason for doing the same thing. We trophy hunters pay for 90% of the game management programs worldwide, the anti-poaching programs and the educational programs teaching the indiginious peoples the value of wildlife. We ARE the reason many species exist today in huntable numbers, because through lisencing, trophy fees and daily rates we make the game more valuable to the locals than sheep or cattle. This is not pedelstelizing, this is fact, the same way your lisence and tag fees go towards game management within your home province or territory. We trophy hunters just do it on a much larger scale.
I hold no animosity towards table hunters at all, like I said, it is as old as man himself. Please just stop lumping me with meat wasting poachers because I hunt from a totally different part of my brain and strive to take the largest/oldest of a species and then immortilize him in my trophy room.

Douglas

Thank you Ardent for the words of support from a brother who understands the bigger picture of worldwide hunting and game management.

 

[GunGuy34]

Quite the contrary, all I ask is the same respect you may give another table hunter. I do not put myself on a pedestel at all, I just vehemently love my past time of trophy hunting. I allow you the respect of table hunting, and I understand the entire mentality behind it, it's as old as man himself. I did not mean to denegrate the table hunter, as I fish, shoot non trophy grouse, I hunt non trophy rabbits and quite often I hunt non trophy cariboo for grub. But my passion is out in the mountains hunting a 11" billy goat or a 42" ram or a 100 lb elephant. To say meat hunting is the "lowest form of opportunistic predation" is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. Table hunters are functioning as do wolves, coyotes, cougars etc. This is a whole different level of predation, with a whole different motivation driving it. I fully understand and agree with it, all I ask is give me the same respect I allow you.
I'm not the enemy, I'm your brother with a different reason for doing the same thing. We trophy hunters pay for 90% of the game management programs worldwide, the anti-poaching programs and the educational programs teaching the indiginious peoples the value of wildlife. We ARE the reason many species exist today in huntable numbers, because through lisencing, trophy fees and daily rates we make the game more valuable to the locals than sheep or cattle. This is not pedelstelizing, this is fact, the same way your lisence and tag fees go towards game management within your home province or territory. We trophy hunters just do it on a much larger scale.
I hold no animosity towards table hunters at all, like I said, it is as old as man himself. Please just stop lumping me with meat wasting poachers because I hunt from a totally different part of my brain and strive to take the largest/oldest of a species and then immortilize him in my trophy room.

Douglas

Thank you Ardent for the words of support from a brother who understands the bigger picture of worldwide hunting and game management.

All these things your preaching about are not why you hunt at all, you can say those things and they may be true. However, you are not being honest. You just like to kill period, you love the feeling of taking some old majestic creature down and out of existence.

Ill quote you from another thread

"OK guys, let's say you got terminal cancer, (God forbid) what one animal would you like to go out knowing you outsmarted. The one animal that you could fade off into oblivion saying I'm happy, 'cause I always wanted one of those SOB's.
Money no object, someone else is payng the tab, 28 day hunt if necessary.
F...k CITIES I, F....k Illegal, what would you wish for, for your final triumph, if someone else was paying. "


You get off on killing s**t man, thats the truth of it.

I have to laugh at the replies in that thread i took that quote from, some guys want to kill blue whales and Siberian tigers ffs lol. What is wrong with you people. Emperor Penguins dude, thats a real challenge, maybe getting there would be lol.

 

[rem338win]

I can count the times I have bought beef from the store in the last decade on two hands. We eat wild game exclusively for many reasons, that said, I do look for mature antlered animals when I am not shooting slick heads. It is for the satisfaction of harvesting a mature animal and maintaining the health of the herd. That and I am sick of salad tossers.

 

[track]

Most hunters are "meat" hunters until that "trophy" walks in front of their stand.lol

Your statement is most correct, and there is absalutley nothing wrong to be a meat hunter. I totally encourage people, especially new comers to hunt and harvest a doe or young buck. If a big buck walks out I wish that meat hunter all the best to place his/her tag on that animal.

 

[Superbrad]

Interested on opinions on this, I noticed another thread that got sidetracked by this debate so let's debate this on a thread devoted to nothing else.

I am a devout trophy hunter, that does not mean that I do not use the meat or see that it is used, and I abide by all game laws.
This is not a debate about poaching, but a debate about the different motivations for going afield and legally harvesting game.

Opinions?

This was the OP.... asking for opinions... and a debate....

I think he was pretty reasonable in his honesty regarding what motivates him as a hunter...

There are many angles to debate why you should / shouldn't trophy hunt....

There are many angles to debate why you should / shouldn't table hunt.....

At the end of the day we are all hunters and the bottom line is that I don't need anyone to be my moral compass... my reasons for hunting are mine and mine alone... I abide by all of the game laws...

If someone tells me that I am performing a very base act in killing and eating an animal I thank them and move on.... That's exactly why I do it.... I love the outdoors, I love the thrill of the chase and i love working for my meal... I also love skinning, butchering and smoking / cooking my own meat and fish.... I like sitting around the table with my family enjoying a meal of something I worked hard to get and recounting some of the stories that go along with the hunt.... I also love the fact that my kids will be partaking in some of these activities as they get older instead of sitting in front of the television.... all these things to me are "base" and there is nothing wrong with being "base"..... believe me, I commute evry day to a job to feed my family and it eats up 60 hours of my life each week... I sometimes wish I could be completely "base"....

As for trophy hunting I have done some of that also... although limited by my finances.... I enjoy trying to outwit a wary predator, stalk a seasoned whitetail buck (21 years and still no wallhanger) or even pursue a cougar behind hounds (never been the shooter... some day)....

I understand reasons for both..... but , more importantly, what I understand is that it is not up to me to judge another man's interests as related to hunting.... as long as game laws are followed.... If we want to preserve our sport for future generations we need to work together and not against eachother......

 

[senior]

I am actually neither!
I hunt to spend time at the camp with old friends & new ones.
If a trophy walks out to me, fine I do a little jig
If it's a nice little meat buck, fine I do another little jig
If nothing, fine, I'll not starve & I've spent the hunting season doing what I like!


PS. added...also because I like guns & shooting guns

 

[bearkilr]

All these things your preaching about are not why you hunt at all, you can say those things and they may be true. However, you are not being honest. You just like to kill period, you love the feeling of taking some old majestic creature down and out of existence.

Ill quote you from another thread

"OK guys, let's say you got terminal cancer, (God forbid) what one animal would you like to go out knowing you outsmarted. The one animal that you could fade off into oblivion saying I'm happy, 'cause I always wanted one of those SOB's.
Money no object, someone else is payng the tab, 28 day hunt if necessary.
F...k CITIES I, F....k Illegal, what would you wish for, for your final triumph, if someone else was paying. "


You get off on killing s**t man, thats the truth of it.

I have to laugh at the replies in that thread i took that quote from, some guys want to kill blue whales and Siberian tigers ffs lol. What is wrong with you people. Emperor Penguins dude, thats a real challenge, maybe getting there would be lol.

You seem to think that by meat hunting you are somehow doing a "favor" to the animal? Newsflash, the end result is the same and the prey cares little how it arrives at that fate.

In an earlier post, you mention how you'd rather see an old moose bull or grizzly die a natural death, then you pose with a picture of a young bull who has his whole life ahead of him. Am I missing something?

Now you live in Ft. Mac and have never hunted in AB, yet I doubt you're a vegetarian. You feel good about eating meat which comes from slaughter plants who's sole purpose of existence is killing and feeding the decadent and hypocritical carnivores of society which have become detached from nature and reality. Do you fall into this category?

 

[Dogleg]

The different types of hunters don't understand each other. Oh, in some cases they think they do like the meat hunter who thinks the trophy hunter is an arrogant prick. Chances are, when and if the MH evolves into a trophy hunter he may come to understand that the motives are completely different than he once thought.

The success hunter can't understand how anyone can let anything go. The effiency hunter may pride himself on getting his deer in the first 15 minutes of opening day. There is no way that he is going to understand the technique hunter who is trying to make his hunt more difficult. I don't understand why the guys who are trying to make things hard wear warm clothes or shoes.

People measure success in different ways. It might be big horns. Those big horns may be personal momentos of a trip, or they might serve as story telling material. There are people that like to show off trophies, and there are people that are impressed by them. If it happens that you are one of those that doesn't care about someones else's horns and hides why not shrug and realise that you aren't the target audience? There others that want to hear about the walrus he got with the Eskimos, or the African trackers that found his bull in Zim, or how he's still recovering from watching someone eat bugs.

The "book" hunter doesn't understand the trophy hunter who could have listed dozens of heads but doesn't think its anyones business but his own. The celebrity hunter seeking recognition doesn't understand the guy that values his privacy.

Some are quick to put down the travelling international hunter. Its easy to take a swing at the "rich guy" and for some it never gets old. He may have little for hunting skills, but he may have considerably more than his guide. He might not evren be that rich, but chances are he is pretty successful in some other area of his life to pay for it all, and I know from personal experience that some of those guys became successfull soley to pursue their passions.

People are quick to judge, and have no problem thinking that they understand that which they bash. Judge not, for thee shall be judged.

For the record I consider myself an "experience hunter", with my memories being the primary objective. Mind you, some of those memories are of meat hunting, trophy hunting, score chaseing, pure volume, wilderness campfires, technique and skill building, and seeing different parts of the world while packing a hunting rifle of my choice.

 

[Mount Sweetness]

Hunting is a sport. Some enjoy only specific aspects of the sport, others don't even consider it a sport.

I myself enjoy the exploration aspect when combined with a good chase.

 

[Big Game]

Your statement is most correct, and there is absalutley nothing wrong to be a meat hunter. I totally encourage people, especially new comers to hunt and harvest a doe or young buck. If a big buck walks out I wish that meat hunter all the best to place his/her tag on that animal.

Over the years I've been fortunate enough to take many animals. Now I let my wife and son and nephew do the "freezer" hunting. This past fall we managed to put some waterfowl and venison in the freezer, I shot a nice buck (not a trophy) and a young bull moose that I shared with 3 really good friends. Necessity made me harvest these animals but I enjoy watching new hunters get their game even more. I still remember my first deer like it was yesterday while most others are just blurs. Trophy hunting increases the challenge but in the end I couldn't imagine going a winter without some game in the freezer.

 

[Ardent]

The benefits on wildlife and habitat protect from trophy hunting (heck, any hunting) in developing nations is undisputed but claiming that you do it to support conservation is disingenuous to say the least. If that was your interest you could and would stay at home and write checks to foreign lands or be an ecotourist. You pay because you want the trophy and the experience or the experience and the trophy and the herds and habitat they live in benefit as a by product.
That being said, I strongly encourage you to keep saving up and going on those trips- nobody takes care of things that are worthless. Just leave a couple critters for me.

I'm not "claiming", I'm stating, as I do sit at home and write checks to conservation, towards animals my hunting can no longer feasibly support, like the Black Rhino. My Cape Buffalo hunt dropped more money into African conservation in two weeks than fifty monthly World Wildlife Fund donors do over a year. There honestly isn't a better way for me to donate to the future and health of African big game than to explore my passion and hunt, and conservation is at the forefront of my concerns about where my money goes and how it is used. Hunters (and the trophy sort features heavily here) have been the largest shared-goal conservationist force on earth for a long time now. To suggest we're somehow greedily simply collecting heads and a convenient side effect of it is that wildlife benefits, is misleading. So you're right partly, but I'm not a fan of the tone.

GunGuy34, you're an amusing sort of fellow, bandwagon'ing on with anyone against trophy hunting even if they likely wouldn't agree with your rash and uninformed opinions overall. You certainly didn't hit a nerve, you actually had me sighing and shaking my head at the screen, as on my monitor I'm reading the textbook opinions of an uninformed anti. It's simply sad, not angering.

 

[MiG25]

don't get me wrong, i like a full freezer. but where i live, strickly meat hunting has no challenge. i haven't taken a whitetail buck since '08 or a mule deer buck since '09, not because the opportunity wasn't there, but because none that i saw really suited me. so does went into the freezer. but shooting a doe in my area is no more challenging than shooting a steer.

i wonder how many strictly meat hunters would turn down the chance to hunt goat or sheep if they lived in a province that had them?

 

[ironsighter]

i wonder how many strictly meat hunters would turn down the chance to hunt goat or sheep if they lived in a province that had them?

The ones who are not interested in eating goat or sheep would turn down the chance to hunt them. Is this not obvious?

 

[Superbrad]

I'm not "claiming", I'm stating, as I do sit at home and write checks to conservation, towards animals my hunting can no longer feasibly support, like the Black Rhino. My Cape Buffalo hunt dropped more money into African conservation in two weeks than fifty monthly World Wildlife Fund donors do over a year. There honestly isn't a better way for me to donate to the future and health of African big game than to explore my passion and hunt, and conservation is at the forefront of my concerns about where my money goes and how it is used. Hunters (and the trophy sort features heavily here) have been the largest shared-goal conservationist force on earth for a long time now. To suggest we're somehow greedily simply collecting heads and a convenient side effect of it is that wildlife benefits, is misleading. So you're right partly, but I'm not a fan of the tone.

GunGuy34, you're an amusing sort of fellow, bandwagon'ing on with anyone against trophy hunting even if they likely wouldn't agree with your rash and uninformed opinions overall. You certainly didn't hit a nerve, you actually had me sighing and shaking my head at the screen, as on my monitor I'm reading the textbook opinions of an uninformed anti. It's simply sad, not angering.

Which african country does your money go to Ardent?.... Please don't say Zimbabwe... it's among the most corrupt nations in the world....

 

[Superbrad]

don't get me wrong, i like a full freezer. but where i live, strickly meat hunting has no challenge. i haven't taken a whitetail buck since '08 or a mule deer buck since '09, not because the opportunity wasn't there, but because none that i saw really suited me. so does went into the freezer. but shooting a doe in my area is no more challenging than shooting a steer.

i wonder how many strictly meat hunters would turn down the chance to hunt goat or sheep if they lived in a province that had them?

If you wanted a healthier heard you would be better off taking a fgenetically inferior buck than a doe.... just sayin'

 

[MiG25]

If you wanted a healthier heard you would be better off taking a fgenetically inferior buck than a doe.... just sayin'

and how do i tell if they are genetically inferior? that's the excuse i have heard people use for shooting a small buck on the side of the road. just saying.

 

[AbLonewolf]

Interesting post and overall, good replies and opinions.

We have a group that has been hunting together for 25 plus years. As for moose and elk, the younger the better for meat. If an opportunity presents itself with larger animals, I will take it.

As for muleys and whitetails, all of us are after trophies (and yes...we will split/eat them if harvested). Not unusual to pass up 30 plus "decent" bucks in a year. But that is us, and fine by me. Don't "need" the meat that bad.

I usually keep enough for myself, my family, and friends. Will "jerky" a bunch also. By year end...it is gone, and time to go out again. Some years are lean due to a lack of draws, and other factors...but that is OK...I eat more store bought meat then.

Back to the meat.

How many of you actually have wild meat left at the end of August? I realize many here enjoy venison, but at times, there is always some left. Hell, I know some guys that will have two deep freeze full...and some of the meat is 3-4 years old. Pretty sure there are a few here that won't admit this, but it is a fact. So what do you do with the meat?

I am sure many of you have fed your favorite pooch at one time or another...they gotta eat too...

 

[Ardent]

Which african aountry does your money go to Ardent?.... Please don't say Zimbabwe... it's among teh most corrupt nations in the world....

Again, an uninformed comment sadly. My money goes directly to the conservancy, PH's, and local staff (in Zim and elsewhere)- trackers and so forth, who come to value game as a resource to be protected as healthy and growing populations represent the 'crop' of their livelihood. 'Bob Mugabe's cut comes only from the trophy fee, and I'm glad he gets it, as do you think African governments would give two turds about wildlife if it wasn't a valuable revenue source? Because a government is corrupt doesn't mean we write off the entire ecosystem under it, I find your assertion absurd.

As for my donations, yep they go to Zim, and aren't touched by a single hand outside of non-profit conservation. The Zim game managers and PH's are among the best in the world as well, their program is one of the most stringent and heavily organised in Africa despite popular misconception from those who've never been there.

 

[Superbrad]

and how do i tell if they are genetically inferior? that's the excuse i have heard people use for shooting a small buck on the side of the road. just saying.

I meant that removing inferior bucks from teh gene pool creates a healthier and heartier deer population... and ,leaves more does out there for the remaining bucks with better genes to breed with... one healthy prime trophy buck can mate with many does in a single season... but only if a smaller buck hasn't bread her first...

Usually you can tell by the antlers.... Sometimes other characteristics are tell-tale.... Typically, for the purposes of deer management people shoot deer without brow tines (this indicates they are on the downward side of life), deer with mismatched racks ie spike on one side fork on the other, deer with odd rack configurations such as fork sized antlers on a big body or fork size antlers pointing in strange directions.... one I harvested a couple of years back that had one of the funniest looking racks I have ever seen, one side was long and curved and pointed with no brow tine and actually had a "lump" near the end of it... the other was a perfect 3 points, also he had almost no tail......

 

[Superbrad]

Again, an uninformed comment sadly. My money goes directly to the conservancy, PH's, and local staff- trackers and so forth, who come to value game as a resource to be protected as healthy and growing populations represent the 'crop' of their livelihood. 'Bob Mugabe's cut comes only from the trophy fee, and I'm glad he gets it, as do you think African governments would give two turds about wildlife if it wasn't a valuable revenue source? Because a government is corrupt doesn't mean we write off the entire ecosystem under it, I find your assertion absurd.

I apologize if you feel I was "asserting" something..... wasn't the case at all... I am glad you see that you take the time to assure that your money goes to the right place and not to the government itself...