Trophy Hunting

[sheephunter]

If there is no population problem then may I ask, "why a hunter who harvests a ram is not eligible to hunt sheep the following year"? This is not a common practice with other species in Alberta.

Honestly not sure...been that way for as long as I've hunted sheep. Long before there was any talk of a "problem". I remember a time when if you drew an antelope tag in Alberta that you had to wait three years before you could apply again. I remember a time when you had to choose three of four in elk, moose, mule deer and whitetail tags. Who knows what precipitated some of these rules back in the day.

 

[Duffy]

Duffy, it would be a once in a lifetime draw because of the very low harvest goal. You can't compare any other species that's on a priority draw to it. Say you gave out 500 tags per year to 25,000 applicants. You could draw a tag every 25 years. So maybe for some it would be twice in a lifetime.

Where do you get those numbers from? Are you thinking that there are 25,000 sheep hunters out climbing around in the rocks trying to kill one of the 500 legal rams that can be harvested each fall?

 

[Duffy]

If there is no population problem then may I ask, "why a hunter who harvests a ram is not eligible to hunt sheep the following year"? This is not a common practice with other species in Alberta.

I believe when people say "there is no population problem" they are talking about the over all bighorn sheep population in Alberta. However the number and "quality" of trophy rams (and the gene pool) is what may be a problem.

 

[sheephunter]

Where do you get those numbers from? Are you thinking that there are 25,000 sheep hunters out climbing around in the rocks trying to kill one of the 500 legal rams that can be harvested each fall?

Nope we currently have around 2,200 sheep hunters each year, but we've already got nearly 12,000 people applying for the handful of sheep draws in Alberta....it's not hard to imagine that number doubling if we had a province-wide draw. And the harvest goal is 200...not 500. Lots of good info out there Duffy if you really want to be informed on the subject...one just needs to search it out.

 

[Duffy]

Nope we currently have around 2,200 sheep hunters each year, but we've already got nearly 12,000 people applying for the handful of sheep draws in Alberta....it's not hard to imagine that number doubling if we had a province-wide draw. And the harvest goal is 200...not 500. Lots of good info out there Duffy if you really want to be informed on the subject...one just needs to search it out.

Yes you are right there is some good information out there. Like hat I was just reading in the bighorn sheep ram management paper for Alberta.

"At our current harvest rates, more than 90% of new trophy rams are being harvested in most SMAs annually. In some SMAs, the entire group of new trophy rams plus many of the surviving trophy rams from previous years are also being harvested."

I'd say its long past the time when ram licences should go on a draw. Without imagining anything.

 

[sheephunter]

Yes you are right there is some good information out there. Like hat I was just reading in the bighorn sheep ram management paper for Alberta.

"At our current harvest rates, more than 90% of new trophy rams are being harvested in most SMAs annually. In some SMAs, the entire group of new trophy rams plus many of the surviving trophy rams from previous years are also being harvested."

I'd say its long past the time when ram licences should go on a draw. Without imagining anything.

Once again you are getting part of the story and running with it yelling the sky is falling....you should likely get the whole story to really have an informed opinion. ESRD are masters at dishing out only what they want you to know and leaving out important information that may not lead you where they want to go. I figured you of all people would see the folly in that statement right off the bat.

 

[Duffy]

Sorry to be involved in getting way off track from your original post. We probably need another thread to talk about (I mean run yelling the sky is falling) about bighorn ram management in Alberta.

I figured you of all people would see the folly in that statement right off the bat.

What statement is that? The one you made about ESRD?

 

[sheephunter]

What statement is that? The one you made about ESRD?

Nope the one you quoted from the sheep management plan. Sleep on it for a few nights Duffy...it will come to you in a blinding flash in the middle of the night. It will be one of the Homeresque "Doh" moments. Hunters were being purposefully lead astray by ESRD in regards to sheep management in the province and they got caught red handed. Why do you think there was the cryptic 11th hour rescinding of the bighorn regulation changes for 2013 and a promise of no changes for 2014 when they were already celebrating that they'd rammed them down our throats?

 

[Duffy]

Well now your tin foil hat is really starting to show...

I think I will be up in Fort Mac for the AF&GA conference. Maybe we can get a bottle of Lemon Hart and get this figured out down around the smart part of the bottle.

 

[sheephunter]

Well now your tin foil hat is really starting to show...

I think I will be up in Fort Mac for the AF&GA conference. Maybe we can get a bottle of Lemon Hart and get this figured out down around the smart part of the bottle.

It's funny you mention that Duffy as that is definitely one thing that really concerned me; that I was indeed becoming part of the tinfoil hat crowd but the facts boar my suspicions out and thanks to a few very dedicated sheep hunters and four of the AGMAG groups, ESRD was caught red handed and in the end held accountable. No wild accusations were made and there was no public speculation but the truth was ultimately revealed and only then was ESRD confronted with it. None of this is speculation but pure fact with a long paper trail to back it up. No need to even crack the Lemon Hart....Believe whatever you like but in this case at least one of the senior ESRD staff member did purposefully deceive to further an ESRD agenda. Like I said, read that quote from the sheep management plan carefully...a guy with your background should easily see right through it. Take a look through all the management options that were floated out by ESRD and summarily retracted when the BS in them was pointed out. Even this Fiesta-Blanchet study was one thing they hung their hat on briefly and now they denounce it. I'm sure you remember that from the Calgary conference. There are a dozen other cases. But you are right, we are deflecting away from the original intent of this thread.

 

[gixxstar]

Comments section aside, it is an interesting article. I was glad to see the relative lack of bias in the writing. There's no doubt that the population numbers appear healthy. I'm sure to some degree any selective hunting could affect the gene pool. There will always be the vocal opponents of trophy hunting but the question to be answered isn't whether or not it's acceptable. The real question is whether or not regulated hunting has changed the population dynamics and whether or not we can or should do something about it.

 

[medvedqc]

Hunting Shows...

First, they give the impression that all big game hunts take place in 45 minutes, and that they always end successfully. This, as all of you know, is a load, but there are apparently a lot of people who are just getting into the sport who buy into it. Or at least I’m so informed by outraged guides whose jobs are made all that much harder by “hunters” who can hardly wait to knock something down the first morning and get back to someplace that’s within cell range.

Invariably, when someone kills something, there follow high-fives, hog calls, whoops of joy, and general all-around merriment.

To the hunter, I say: All you did, numbnuts, was pull the trigger. Without your guide, you’d be sitting in the blind scratching yourself. Why are you acting like a hero? Also, you’ve just taken the life of something that wanted to live as much as you do. Congratulations are in order, maybe, but show a little respect. Other cultures manage it; I’ve seen them.

Aside from that, hunting shows are fine.

David E. Petzal

Blargon,

i cant agree more.

i ve guided in the past some show team, some were in the field with camera while some others were just in vacations and promoting on their own website or posting pictures of the hunt with different shows . some of them maybe are nice but they re coming to make a show and make money none of them helped to gut an animal or carry the meat and to me a hunter even on a paid show is giving his hands the way then can, then of course the editing is another thing they control and again they re selling or promoting products and very often even the outfitter ....so a show for me will never be the place i d look to go huting but im not that in the marketing hype plus where we live it s an hunting dream even not a guaranteed hunt lol ...

 

[track]

Honestly not sure...been that way for as long as I've hunted sheep. Long before there was any talk of a "problem". I remember a time when if you drew an antelope tag in Alberta that you had to wait three years before you could apply again. I remember a time when you had to choose three of four in elk, moose, mule deer and whitetail tags. Who knows what precipitated some of these rules back in the day.

I refuse to believe that you are not aware why a hunter is not eligible to hunt the following year after harvesting a ram. You lived in Alberta all of your life, hunted sheep religiously and full of political, legislative, regulation knowledge. Hmmmm, I guess that I will contact Kim Morton (wildlife Biologist) out of Lethbridge to inquire about this simple question. My common sense tells me that the sheep population is sustainable but plenty of room for them to populate in more numbers which will help with quality and quantity of trophy rams. Of course a limited draw would be needed.
Regarding the write-up and comments there after, well it's the same old hum drum regarding hunting and trophy hunting. As I mentioned before, annually it rears it ugly head when the non and anti hunters have the podium to comment on the said subject. (deja vu) I personally don't feel threatened by these people and believe that hunting and trophy hunting is here to stay for a long time.

 

[Duffy]

If I may interject. Hunting regulations are made by various people for various reasons. Not all are based on science and game management. For example our premier and minister responsible for "Fish&wildlife" were both anglers and decided to make the province go barbless even though the science said it was not sound management. Now when you are fishing and one gets off at long range we call it a "Kline release".

I imagine some enforcement officer (they have a lot of influence on making regulation changes) figured it was not right and fair for one hunter to collect a ram after taking one the year before.

 

[track]

If I may interject. Hunting regulations are made by various people for various reasons. Not all are based on science and game management. For example our premier and minister responsible for "Fish&wildlife" were both anglers and decided to make the province go barbless even though the science said it was not sound management. Now when you are fishing and one gets off at long range we call it a "Kline release".

I imagine some enforcement officer (they have a lot of influence on making regulation changes) figured it was not right and fair for one hunter to collect a ram after taking one the year before.

Why wouldn't it be fair? Many other species are taken annually in Alberta, some species a hunter can take up to 5 or 6 whitetails in one season provided that he/she is lucky in the draw.(Let me see, 1 regular draw, 2 supplemental tags, 2 Camp Wainwright, 1 Magrath quota tag, what else?). I believe that population numbers are rally not that substantial number compared to other species........a draw for sheep would definitely help increase their population.

 

[norskie]

Why wouldn't it be fair? Many other species are taken annually in Alberta, some species a hunter can take up to 5 or 6 whitetails in one season provided that he/she is lucky in the draw.(Let me see, 1 regular draw, 2 supplemental tags, 2 Camp Wainwright, 1 Magrath quota tag, what else?). I believe that population numbers are rally not that substantial number compared to other species........a draw for sheep would definitely help increase their population.

So we compare sheep populations to white tailed deer? That is beyond ridiculous.

A ban on Sage grouse hunting will help their populations as well... oh wait.

 

[sheephunter]

I refuse to believe that you are not aware why a hunter is not eligible to hunt the following year after harvesting a ram. .

LOL...it's your choice to believe whatever you like but I wasn't around when the law came into being so I have no idea what social aspects drove it. I can pretty well guarantee it wasn't a management decision. 80% of the rams shot each year are a hunter's first ram so it's not like we have this endemic problem with guys shooting multiple rams and driving the population down. I suspect it was a law borne out of lack of statistics and likely a bit of jealousy but that's pure speculation. Maybe the SRD Minister's neighbour shot two rams in a row and it peeved him off....who knows. All I can speak for is me and I have no idea.

 

[sheephunter]

a draw for sheep would definitely help increase their population.

But do we need to increase their population? Do we have the carrying capacity to increase their population? I haven't seen the science to support it.

No doubt it would make the hunt easier to manage for SRD...something they rub their hands together in glee about but we would lose the bulk of sheep hunters in Alberta in a couple generations. The hunt would become so precious that we'd end up with a culture like that of Wyoming where hunters would have no experience with sheep, have no friends with experience in a sheep so the only alternative would be to hire an outfitter so you maximized your once in a lifetime tag. Is that a culture we really want to propagate in Alberta? I know I sure don't.

 

[patty59]

Why wouldn't it be fair? Many other species are taken annually in Alberta, some species a hunter can take up to 5 or 6 whitetails in one season provided that he/she is lucky in the draw.(Let me see, 1 regular draw, 2 supplemental tags, 2 Camp Wainwright, 1 Magrath quota tag, what else?). I believe that population numbers are rally not that substantial number compared to other species........a draw for sheep would definitely help increase their population.

White tails and Rams are apples and fire trucks.

And to your point about a draw helping increase the population; I'm not sure where anyone stated that the population needed increasing or was in danger. In this article they say the problem is Rams horns are 3cm shorter than they were 40 years ago and those are Rams that were killed by hunters. But, they only used data in WMU's that have outfitting and only rams killed during the outfitting season, cherry picking at its finest. They also didn't count the Cadomin rams, more cherry picking. WMU 400, where the rams need to be full curl to be legal and where many large rams are killed every year, not counted, more cherry picking. So it's easy to manipulate data when you don't include all the data. How can this "study" even be considered credible?

Anyways, Bill Wishart did a study that proved rams grow bigger horns in areas that had a ewe season. This is almost never brought up, not sure why, since it's not manipulated data, it's honest.

I think people are doing a disservice to themselves to read this article and others of the like and take it no questions asked. There's a ton of info out there.

 

[track]

White tails and Rams are apples and fire trucks.

And to your point about a draw helping increase the population; I'm not sure where anyone stated that the population needed increasing or was in danger. In this article they say the problem is Rams horns are 3cm shorter than they were 40 years ago and those are Rams that were killed by hunters. But, they only used data in WMU's that have outfitting and only rams killed during the outfitting season, cherry picking at its finest. They also didn't count the Cadomin rams, more cherry picking. WMU 400, where the rams need to be full curl to be legal and where many large rams are killed every year, not counted, more cherry picking. So it's easy to manipulate data when you don't include all the data. How can this "study" even be considered credible?

Anyways, Bill Wishart did a study that proved rams grow bigger horns in areas that had a ewe season. This is almost never brought up, not sure why, since it's not manipulated data, it's honest.

I think people are doing a disservice to themselves to read this article and others of the like and take it no questions asked. There's a ton of info out there.

That's right there is a vast difference, whitetails are a hardy animal and prolific breeders, unlike big horn sheep. Therefore, they (sheep) require more time to populate therefore a draw would be a step in the right direction to increase the population for the sake of sheep populations and not hunting opportunities.