Trudeau and Blair BAN 12 Gauge and 10 Gauge SHOTGUNS!

sigboy said:
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firea...-new-prohibition-certain-firearms-and-devices
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yes yes, you are a little late to the party this has already be discussed ad nausium.

1) one can assume that they are talking about a fixed choke shotgun not a threaded choke otherwise it would be to the muzzle and they have not made any such statement they only state "before choke".
2) they say that "bore" is from a point between the chamber and the choke, but say nothing about the forcing cone. If bore was measured at this point (since its 'a point') the forcing cone would definitely put the bore above 20mm and render it a prohibited weapon according to the OIC
3) they have only recognized nominal standards but have said nothing about "backbore" or "overbore" which could go much higher than 20mm and render a 12g a prohibited weapon.
4) ever heard of a "wild cat 12g from hell"?(actually pretty cool) yup that's right a 12g has the capability to discharge at greater than 10k joules

730 gr slug out at 2700 fps
Were talking .50 BMG energy out nearing 12,000 ft pounds
The recoil without a muzzle comp has got to be pounding you.
I love what you done.
Its got the potential to become an awesome grizzly slayer with the right slugs..
Holland and Holland double rifles usually sell for around $50,000
http://www.hollandandholland.com/~ne...guns/index.htm
A .700 nitro express that they make would cost $100 a round
http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/a...3943-3,00.html
You got something that rivals an H&H 700 nitro for thousands less.
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The RCMP's opinion and $1.05 might get you a drink at McDonalds on dollar drink days but their opinion doesn't supersede the law as it is written. 10 and 12g shotguns are prohibited if; they have a bore measuring over 20mm (which according to their published definition of bore most will since they ignore the forcing cone) or are capable of discharging at over 10k joules (which they are with a "wild cat" slug)

We should be clogging their lines and emails with questions about this and get good clarification, but their opinion really is just that an opinion it is not precedent setting or legally binding.
what needs to happen is this OIC needs to be rescinded, then C71, and maybe we can actually get some clear, common sense gun laws in this country, wishful thinking I know but it would be nice.
 
A_Modest_Proposal said:
Hey, thanks for your input. Perhaps you can point to where there was an earlier post stating 12ga can discharge projectiles with greater than 10kj energy helpy helper guy?
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This argument makes slightly more sense, although still highly unrealistic. Is there not a “readily available for sale in Canada” clause in firearms law? Either way. You can probably stuff a lot of things in a lot of different guns that may or may not go bang. They probably don’t meet SAAMI specs though...
 
We should be clogging their lines and emails with questions about this and get good clarification, but their opinion really is just that an opinion it is not precedent setting or legally binding.
what needs to happen is this OIC needs to be rescinded, then C71, and maybe we can actually get some clear, common sense gun laws in this country, wishful thinking I know but it would be nice.
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I think you are seeing the light. Wishful thinking ie wasting your time arguing against your own people. Best case scenario, they modify the OIC to clarify bore diameter or insert exception for shotguns. Then you get to hear him speak about how he listened to the gun owners of this country and ensured their hunting firearms are safe. He looks like the hero, you helped him do it, and we are in the exact same spot we are today.
 
Mds694 said:
This argument makes slightly more sense, although still highly unrealistic. Is there not a “readily available for sale in Canada” clause in firearms law? Either way. You can probably stuff a lot of things in a lot of different guns that may or may not go bang. They probably don’t meet SAAMI specs though...
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I'm almost sure they will try to fall back on something like a "commercially available" exception. The catch is that 12ga shot guns ARE readily available and the OiC is worded such that the fire arm is prohibited if IT is capable of discharging 10kj or greater, nothing about the cartridge. Shotguns are known for being able to fire all sorts of absurdities, including rubber chickens. The 12gfh is simply a full brass 3 1/2 inch hand load, big by full brass standards but not a fringe idea as any handloader could tell you. By definition "wildcat" rounds are not included in any saami specification but that doesn't exclude them from being in common use. .223 was a wildcat round developed for the AR-15 and didn't become a common saami chambering until sometime in the '80's when saami accepted it as a sporting cartridge while the AR-15 was the only commercially available option.
 
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Mds694 said:
I think you are seeing the light. Wishful thinking ie wasting your time arguing against your own people. Best case scenario, they modify the OIC to clarify bore diameter or insert exception for shotguns. Then you get to hear him speak about how he listened to the gun owners of this country and ensured their hunting firearms are safe. He looks like the hero, you helped him do it, and we are in the exact same spot we are today.
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I'd have just as much fun poking holes in those amendments too.
 
Big-boss-man said:
yes yes, you are a little late to the party this has already be discussed ad nausium.

1) one can assume that they are talking about a fixed choke shotgun not a threaded choke otherwise it would be to the muzzle and they have not made any such statement they only state "before choke".
2) they say that "bore" is from a point between the chamber and the choke, but say nothing about the forcing cone. If bore was measured at this point (since its 'a point') the forcing cone would definitely put the bore above 20mm and render it a prohibited weapon according to the OIC
3) they have only recognized nominal standards but have said nothing about "backbore" or "overbore" which could go much higher than 20mm and render a 12g a prohibited weapon.
4) ever heard of a "wild cat 12g from hell"?(actually pretty cool) yup that's right a 12g has the capability to discharge at greater than 10k joules




The RCMP's opinion and $1.05 might get you a drink at McDonalds on dollar drink days but their opinion doesn't supersede the law as it is written. 10 and 12g shotguns are prohibited if; they have a bore measuring over 20mm (which according to their published definition of bore most will since they ignore the forcing cone) or are capable of discharging at over 10k joules (which they are with a "wild cat" slug)

We should be clogging their lines and emails with questions about this and get good clarification, but their opinion really is just that an opinion it is not precedent setting or legally binding.
what needs to happen is this OIC needs to be rescinded, then C71, and maybe we can actually get some clear, common sense gun laws in this country, wishful thinking I know but it would be nice.
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I would suggest forwarding this to NFA/Solomon Friedman and CCFR. It could prove useful.
 
A_Modest_Proposal said:
I'm almost sure they will try to fall back on something like a "commercially available" exception. The catch is that 12ga shot guns ARE readily available and the OiC is worded such that the fire arm is prohibited if IT is capable of discharging 10kj or greater, nothing about the cartridge. Shotguns are known for being able to fire all sorts of absurdities, including rubber chickens. The 12gfh is simply a full brass 3 1/2 inch hand load, big by full brass standards but not a fringe idea as any handloader could tell you. By definition "wildcat" rounds are not included in any saami specification but that doesn't exclude them from being in common use. .223 was a wildcat round developed for the AR-15 and didn't become a common saami chambering until sometime in the '80's when saami accepted it as a sporting cartridge while the AR-15 was the only commercially available option.
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This is actually quite interesting.
The government and RCMP say they base their determinations on SAAMI standards...if SAAMI validates 223 as a sporting cartridge, then the case could be made that the RCMP/government have to find guns chambered in that caliber reasonnable for sports shooting.
 
Mds694 said:
I think you are seeing the light. Wishful thinking ie wasting your time arguing against your own people. Best case scenario, they modify the OIC to clarify bore diameter or insert exception for shotguns. Then you get to hear him speak about how he listened to the gun owners of this country and ensured their hunting firearms are safe. He looks like the hero, you helped him do it, and we are in the exact same spot we are today.
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Not that easy to correct. If you increase the acceptable diameter, then you start excluding some grenade launcher from the ban, which was the point to begin with. If you try to exclude shotguns, then you open a whole new can of worm, which is to define what a shotgun is (nothing even close to that in the FA act). You could end up with 88mm howitzers that are also shotguns.

The root of their problem is that a 20mm grenade launcher is technically pretty much the same thing as a 10G shotgun.

As for the energy problem, it goes way beyond shotguns. There is a possibility that everything that's 308Win or larger is prohibited at this point. It is possible to generate 10kj of energy in a case that's the size of a 308Win, so in theory, the calibre is "capable of discharging a projectile with a muzzle energy greater than 10,000 joules". In practice I don't think so, but:
1-Anything that's 338LM or larger is capable of that in practice, I have no doubt about it;
2-With advancement in smokeless powder technology, the minimum calibre capable of discharging a projectile with a muzzle energy greater than 10,000 joules will shrink. An increase in energy/volume comes with a decrease in the case capacity required to discharge a projectile faster. There will come a time when very small cartridge will be capable of discharging a projectile with a muzzle energy greater than 10,000 joules, so the amount of prohibited rifles will grow. Basically, some day a scientist comes up with a new smokeless powder, and your rifle is now prohibited.

Keep in mind that nowhere in the FA, the criminal code or the OIC that any concept of "regular" or "standard" cartridge is expressed. The word "capable" very much includes anything that's atypical, not matter how weird or unsafe the cartridge can be.
 
Youzawhale said:
This is actually quite interesting.
The government and RCMP say they base their determinations on SAAMI standards...if SAAMI validates 223 as a sporting cartridge, then the case could be made that the RCMP/government have to find guns chambered in that caliber reasonnable for sports shooting.
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Any 223 bolt gun.

Keep in mind that for them "sport" means hunting. Or skeet/trap. Not 3guns or ipsc.
 
Youzawhale said:
This is actually quite interesting.
The government and RCMP say they base their determinations on SAAMI standards...if SAAMI validates 223 as a sporting cartridge, then the case could be made that the RCMP/government have to find guns chambered in that caliber reasonnable for sports shooting.
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The problem with using this as an argument is the consideration that firearms are designed around a cartridge (generally, not exclusively). To say a firearm is a sporting arm based solely on the cartridge is uses is incorrect. Example: 7.62x53R used for over a century in rifles for hunting, of course the formidable Mosin Nagant in combat and used as a sporter, the Dragonov marksman (aka sniper rifle) in semi-auto and the Russian RPD belt fed fully automatic MMG.
 
Youzawhale said:
This is actually quite interesting.
The government and RCMP say they base their determinations on SAAMI standards...if SAAMI validates 223 as a sporting cartridge, then the case could be made that the RCMP/government have to find guns chambered in that caliber reasonnable for sports shooting.
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The issue is that the law doesn't say they have to. They choose too because it fits their current objective of not drawing hunters into the fight now, instead of later

If SAAMI came out tomorrow stating that or that AR-15 are "sporting rifles" the RCMP website would just be changed and all would be well

Shawn
 
VinnyQC said:
Any 223 bolt gun.

Keep in mind that for them "sport" means hunting. Or skeet/trap. Not 3guns or ipsc.
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Doesnt matter. Sports shooting is a broad term that is found in law, and it encompasses even what the government would luke to exclude.
 
Dr.Blasto said:
The problem with using this as an argument is the consideration that firearms are designed around a cartridge (generally, not exclusively). To say a firearm is a sporting arm based solely on the cartridge is uses is incorrect. Example: 7.62x53R used for over a century in rifles for hunting, of course the formidable Mosin Nagant in combat and used as a sporter, the Dragonov marksman (aka sniper rifle) in semi-auto and the Russian RPD belt fed fully automatic MMG.
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Thats a fair point.
 
VinnyQC said:
Any 223 bolt gun.

Keep in mind that for them "sport" means hunting. Or skeet/trap. Not 3guns or ipsc.
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Hogwash. Show me where it says that in the firearms act. Target shooting is a sport. Be it F Class, service competitions, three gun or skeet.
 
Leg said:
Hogwash. Show me where it says that in the firearms act. Target shooting is a sport. Be it F Class, service competitions, three gun or skeet.
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https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-117.15-20030101.html


Regulations

117.15 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the Governor in Council may make regulations prescribing anything that by this Part is to be or may be prescribed.


Marginal note:Restriction

(2) In making regulations, the Governor in Council may not prescribe any thing to be a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or prohibited ammunition if, in the opinion of the Governor in Council, the thing to be prescribed is reasonable for use in Canada for hunting or sporting purposes.
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In other words, the GiC can ban anything that in his own opinion is not reasonable for use in canada for hunting or sporting. In other words, the GiC decides what sporting is, based on its own opinion, experts and fact de damned.
 
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