True story of the possible dangers of old ammo

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From post by Latigo st.Marie, who was the 12 yr old victim of the shrapnel, son to Pierre St.Marie, the owner and driving force of Swiss Products.

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Enfields and a long ago true story
Gents, I'm being allowed to post this with the understanding that I not participate in the discussion. I was very young and actually don't remember any part of it other than being in the hospital afterward. My Father will most certainly not discuss it.
This was written by my Father in 1993.
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This is a hard one for me to write, but it demands an explanation.
There was a 5 year stretch beginning in 1986 during which I offered a service to hunters during the summer months. I am in posession of a free standing device that accepted the entire rifle, seats it to the rear against a recoil absorbing mechanism and holds the barrel in place with a Padded "V" adjustable rest with rubber tubing that allowed for "natural recoil". The unit has a seat that may be rotated left or right for either side shooting. The shooter need only to gently squeeze the trigger or fire it with a remote setup. The unit has both rough and fine windage and elevation adjusters. All of this serves to allow the sighting in process with the human out of the equation.

Typically it would take a maximum of 4 rounds to accomplish this. First shot to determine POI in relation to the scope. Without disturbing the rifle, the windage and elevation were then adjusted to intercept the POI of the first shot. Second shot to confirm the desired POI and a third shot to prove the change . 4th shot to prove correct grouping.

Only new, factory ammunition was accepted from the owner of the rifle. No reloads, nothing custom, just in-the-box factory ammunition. The rifle had to be of a recent manufacture. The customer was to deliver the rifle and ammuntion to our facility in town by noon on friday. The sighting process was done on Saturday and Sunday at our range, returning the rifle to the owner the following monday. The owner was absolutely forbidden to be at the Lost Prairie range during this process. An average weekend would see 5 or more rifles to be sighted in.

Most all of these rifles were in the .375 H&H, .300 WinMag, 8mm Mag or .416 Rigby categories, calibers with substantial recoil that the owners were loathe to sight in from the shoulder, thus the use of our firing device.

In 1992, the Saturday before the opening of hunting season, I received a "desperate" call from a gent who said he had just gotten back into the Flathead, had a rifle and was intending to hunt the opening day on Sunday. It was the last one of the season so......... I broke my own range rule #1. "The customer may not be on our range during the process."
He arrived one hour later with his rifle, an Enfield that was original issue. I then broke my own range rule #2. The rifle was not of recent manufacture. It was late, he was there with the rifle, so I proceeded. Range rule #3 was then broken when I accepted a loaded magazine from a box he set on the table. The two boxes he presented were original boxes of the day (WWII vintage), so I proceeded. Thus began a series of events our Family will not soon forget.

A scope of unrecognizeable origin was mounted on the rifle. I locked the rifle into the the Accurite device, sat in the right hand position and placed the crosshairs on the target. Using just my thumb and forefinger on the trigger, I fired the first round. 6" left and 4" high. I noted that the client was exactly behind me and my son Latigo, then 12 years old, was behind me and slightly off to my right. I shifted the crosshairs to the POI and squeezed off the second round. Strangely the POI only shifted half the distance I'd moved the scope, so I closed the bolt as is usual. I commented to the owner that I was relatively positive that he had a cope problem and was about to confirm this with the next shot.

I gently squeezed the trigger and the shot "sounded" wrong. I also felt a concussion wave and hot gas as something rushed to the rear and close to my right ear. I heard a sort of gasp from behind me and saw my son collapsing to the ground. Blood from three places on his white T shirt appeared as I shouted for my wife to call 911. We immediately determined it had to be the Alert helicopter from the Kalispell Regional Hospital instead of an ambulance.

Our home is 36 miles from town and in the mountains, but well known to the Sheriff's Department due to our long term reltionship with officers using our range. the helicopter was here within 15 minutes and they had Latigo loaded in a compression suit and gone in another three minutes. I headed for town.

A deputy intercepted me 20 miles from town and ran front door for me at varying speeds of 70 right up to 100 miles an hour. We were at the hospital shortly thereafter and I truly don't remember the trip in from Lost prairie. Latigo was already in surgery with no word of his condition. The Alert Helicopter nurse asked if I was his father and told me they had jump started his heart twice on the way to KRH and wished me the best of luck. The rest of this is going to be a long explanation shortened as much as possible.
A large piece of metal, having entered his upper chest, was deflected by a rib, tore a channel down his body without hitting a vital organ and was lodged near the base of his spine. A second piece was near his heart but not close enough to damage anything critical. A third piece entered his upper right arm, was deflected by bone and tore a 4" channel down alongside the bone. All three were considered not to be immediately life threatening and that removal surgery would be more dangerous than allowing the metal pieces to grow scar tissue around them and allow for natural gravitation to the surface for removal at later dates.

A deputy accompanied me back to the range where the very distraught owner of the rifle had been taken into the kitchen and given coffee. The rifle was untouched still in the rest.
Examining the unfired cartridges proved them to be original with a lot of mild corrosion, not enough to prevent chambering, but definitely visibly corroded. The balance of the boxed ammunition was in the same condition as were the rest of the boxes in the opriginal 288 round wood box in his truck. His Grandfather had owned this original "bring -back" and the wooden box of ammunituion and had given it to him some 40 years ago.

Now begins the contoversy. This Enfield had fired out of batttery. The pieces in my Son's body were pieces of the bolt. The rifle was otherwise not "apparently" damaged. All of this was a result of me ignoring and violating my own range rules for the sake of expediency and a hunter's desire not to miss opening day. The rifle was taken into the Sheriff's department for storage and keeping as evidence of the incident for the subsequent required incident report. This rifles and the incident became a huge talking point within the department as there were a number of Enfield owner/collectors withing the ranks. Despite the obvious incident, it was generally believed that something was not yet in the equation since everyone knew that "an Enfield could not fire out of battery".

A deputy who had the same model and vintage Enfield asked if he could test this ammunition on his own rifle, under controlled circumstances of course. I agreed. the original owner of the ammuntion agreed to give all of it to the Sheriff's Department for this purpose. We transported the Accurite device to town and set it up in the KPD indoor range. There were 202 rounds left in the original box, so we began firing it with a cord from behind the heavy Polycarbonate shield. After some 60 rounds the barrel was fairly hot so we called it a day.

The following day we began at 5am. At 187 rounds the rifle repeated the Lost Prairie experience and we then did something incredibly stupid. We opened 8 random rounds to examine the powder (cordite actually)...... Something that should have been done right out of the gate, but in retrospect, if we'd done that first we may not have even continued the process that led to the second blown bolt. This vintage ammunition was found to have an unusual amount of deteriorated dust in each case. Certainly due to storage conditions or something as yet undertermined, we surmised the the coagulent had failed and we had experienced a "detonation" rather than a controlled burn in both rifles. The varying amount of deterioration in each cartridge was nothing more than a roll of the dice, luck of the draw, whatever you want to call it. I'll not discuss this further. The incident is something that weighs heavily upon me and this is the only missive I'll compose on the matter.

Today, Latigo still carries the bolt pieces in his body. Xrays determined that the scar tissue did indeed occur and all three pieces were thus trapped and remain immobile in his body. Should the situation change and gravitation does occur, they will then be surgically removed at that point.

P.W. St.Marie


Edited: I copied this from a typewritten sheet and have spelling errors.

Latigo

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I picked some old 8mm mauser ammo, some were a brown colored steel case ammo and some brass cased. I picked through the steel cased that were lightly rusty and broke them apart hoping to save the bullets, inside the case was gunpowder mixed with rust. I went through the brass cased ones and separated the ones with dents or have that green colored corrosion, the gunpowder that came out of the corroded one was clumping together like it was wet.
 
I have had jugs of milsurp power go bad, so it seems logical that the powder in old ammo might go bad.

I have now decided not shoot WW2 ammo, or older. I have some.

Thank you for sharing this.
 
If you get a crate, or even a few boxes, play it safe: pull down a few rounds and check.

Powder that comes out as dust......... or reddish coloured....... or anything at all oddball...... is breaking down. Sometimes this can even happen relatively early because of insufficient de-acidising after manufacture of the nitrocellulose. Insufficient acidising can be even worse; it gives you DInitrocellulose instead of TRInitrocellulose.... and the DI form is unstable.

If you can SMELL acid on opening a bulk tub or can, the powder likely is degrading. Get rid of it

CORDITE can sometimes allow the nitroglycerine to ooze out of the sticks if it is exposed to a lot of heat. A good hot day on the range, with your ammo out in the open, can do this. If your shots start going high, put that ammo away and store it in a cool, dark place; the nitroglycerine will reabsorb in time and the ammo will restabilise. This was much more of a problem with the pre-1910 Cordite than with the later MDT5-2 version, which had much less nitroglycerine. I would think the same thing might occur with any double-base powder containing a fair bit of nitroglycerine. This includes Ballistite and Solenite as well as Cordite. Hercules (Alliant) powders contain, I believe, only about 5% nitroglycerine; the original Cordite was 57%.

Hope this helps.
 
The Lee action is SPRINGY; it is not WEAK. Two very different things. The steels used in the Lee-Enfield rifle are immensely TOUGH, but the long unsupported length of the Bolt Shank lends them a quality of SPRINGINESS not found in other rifles.

The Lee action can handle the pressures of the 7.62NATO in its long-range sniping load (M-118). This has been done as a Match configuration of the Number 4 Rifle and it was actually produced in considerable number in the ancient Number 1 action, albeit in new-production Bodies.

In the incident recounted above, the actual BOLT was shattered and the pieces of it blown from the Rifle with enough force to embed themselves inside a human being. That was NOT done by pressures anywhere near to "normal". That was a DETONATION effect, likely caused by the powder degrading into a violently-unstable form.

For my own satisfaction, I would like to know the headstamp and lot number of the ammunition which caused this, but I suppose this information has been lost over the years.

If you want to read up on problems with RIFLES, read "Hatcher's Notebook", the early chapters on the US 1903 Springfield rifles which would literally FALL APART if they were struck. A MILLION of these were ordered scrapped, yet they still have the reputation as "the finest military bolt rifle ever produced".

One point: nobody ever ordered the scrapping of a million Lee-Enfields!
 
Some things about this don't add up at all.

"This Enfield had fired out of battery. The pieces in my son's body were pieces of the bolt. The rifle was otherwise not "apparently" damaged."

So, if the rifle fired "out of battery" how is that our friend wasn't injured, since he must have still had his hand on the bolt knob for it to have "fired out of battery". That phrase can only mean before the bolt was closed!

Ignoring that for now, from what we read we must conclude that the bolt flew back, tore the end off the bolt with the bolt and firing pin going out the back and the pieces of the bolt head, extractor and perhaps the tip of the firing pin hitting the man's son in the chest. It would make sense that those pieces would fly out to the right at an angle due to the geometry of the Lee Enfield action.

How could the rifle be "apparently undamaged" when the bolthead had just slammed into the main recoil shoulder hard enough to snap off the end of the bolt? That bolt head smashing it's way out of the gap between the charger bridge and the recoil shoulder must have messed up both of them as it went by, no question about that. Then we are to believe the rest of the bolt exited out the rear of the bolt way doing no damage? Must have been a mighty clean snap right by the end of the bolthead threads not to mess up the bolt way on the trip rearward.

As you said Smellie, the most important piece of information: the headstamp of the ammo was omitted. Bizarre. The only reason I can think of is it was US made ammo and he didn't want to say so. If it was British you'd expect to hear about it several times over.

The propellant is described as both "powder" and "cordite", but cordite ain't "powder", and "deteriorated dust" ain't too clear either.

Cordite does contain nitro-glycerine, and degrading cordite may release it in an unstable form, but what impact had been generated to ignite it by feeding a round out of the mag and up into the chamber, or part way into the chamber if the "out of battery" part is correct?

And then we're told they did the same thing again with another Lee Enfield and the same ammo? So, was it "out of battery" this time too?

Oh, and he's not taking questions so don't ask!

Okay...
 
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"I gently squeezed the trigger and the shot "sounded" wrong."

That doesn't sound like an out of battery firing to me. I don't know why he said that, but it just muddles the issue.
 
If he was squeezing the trigger then the bolt must have been locked down in battery. What isn't mentioned here is the rifle, did the bolt have any cracks in the metal ? What type of surplus ammo was used ? We will likely not have any answers on the subject sadly.
 
A lot doesn't sound kosher.

Notice how it doesn't mention what exactly the rifle was.

An unf*cked with Lee Enfield will not fire out of battery. This comes strait from a post I read of Peter L's from milsurps.com (well, with no swearing). Something to do the caming surfaces on the striker. It will either unlock the action completely, or lock up and need to be re-cycled.

What it probably was is a P'14 or M17 (I bet an M17). The 'muricans tend to call them 'Enfield's'.

If it was locked up and he squeezed the trigger it sheared off both locking lugs and the safety lug. Being in the process of reading Hatcher's notebook. Can't find the part I am thinking about, but anything from Chapter VIII "The Strength of Military Rifles" seems to fit the bill.
 
The story is contradictory, and/or the author is terribly confused, based on the following quotes.

“ I closed the bolt as is usual. “ (The Enfield is in battery)
“Using just my thumb and forefinger on the trigger, I fired the first round “ (I would assume all rounds were fired in the rest this way)
“ I gently squeezed the trigger and the shot "sounded" wrong. “
“ Now begins the controversy. This Enfield had fired out of battery. “(Contradictory statement.)
“Examining the unfired cartridges proved them to be original with a lot of mild corrosion, not enough to prevent chambering, but definitely visibly corroded. “ (really, with all his rules he fires this stuff ??)

The other part that bothers me is that the shooter is unhurt, but his son is?
Too much information on the son and too little on the accident.
Sabotaged .303 or .30-06 cartridges unlikely.

Kalispell Regional Hospital as well as the Kalispell police would have records as this happened in 1986. Too bad some could not check on them.

Anything is possible, but the probably this happened as reported, in my onion approaches zero.
 
Some people seem to be taking this as a slam against the Lee Enfield.
That was not the intent by anyone.

Using corroded ammo in ANY action, from a Springfield trapdoor to an Arisaka 99, is asking for trouble.
Maybe no one will get hurt 99.9% of the time, but who is willing to be the .1%?
 
True, about the old ammo being potentially dangerous.
But the story is quite confusing. Not calling anyone untruthful but when the story is convoluted to the point that this one is...other than don't shoot old ammo, nothing can be learned from it.
It's almost like saying "Yes I was confused about 60% of the story, but you can believe this part!"
Glad the injured party recovered well, but other than that, the fail is strong with the story.
Stay safe
 
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