True story of the possible dangers of old ammo

I'm sure it was a Lee Enfield and not a P14 as part of the bolt was mentioned to have struck the son and in a P14 the bolt head is fully supported inside the receiver, and the bolt handle provides a 3rd safety lug that locks into the rear of the receiver. P14 are super strong actions and I have never heard of a bolt failing on them but they will rupture the receiver when a catastrophic failure happens with a overload.

It is common for the Lee Enfield rifles to suffer bolt head damage and bolt head failure with break up and then shrapnel of the bolt head, extractor and spring and screw when something goes wrong as it is a 2 piece unsupported weak point in the bolt lockup of these rifles, more so than most turn bolt action rifles.

I also think the original writer is wrong for thinking or calling it a "out of battery" firing, as Lee Enfields will not fire until the bolt is closed and handle is down.

Maybe these pictures will help show what happens with LE bolts when they fail - DSCF0939-1.jpgLee Enfield Bolthead 01.jpgLee Enfield Bolthead 02.jpg
 

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I remember taking apart some of the surplus British RG surplus .303 that was being sold on bandoliers by Lebaron a few years ago and being surprised to find that the power was not a stick, flake or ball, but rather it was packed in like sphagetti sticks that were as long as the casing. First and only time I'd ever seen cartridges with cordite.
As I understand it, not only does Cordite have nitroglycerine, it has a LOT more nitroglycerine than other powders, and most other countries stopped using it earlier because of the unnaceptable rate of barrel erosion.
That said this thread is a heads up that I should stop hoarding old 1950's ammo and start getting some use out of it at the range before it becomes unuseable!
 
The Brits still have a sample of Lot Number 1 of the original Cordite. It is 58% Nitroglycerine, it is 126 years old and it is stable. They still test a tiny amount every few years.

The Cordite in your RG (Radway Green: British ammo factory built during WW2) ammunition would have been Cordite MDT 5-2, which is only 37% Nitroglycerine. ALL Mark VII cartridges were loaded with MDT or a similar Carbamite-stabilised version of Cordite. The old Cordite Mark I was used from 1890 only to the final production of the Mark VI cartridge in 1911. MDT became the standard in 1910 at the introduction of the Mark VII round.

In the old days, it was known that Cordite could "sweat" nitroglycerine if exposed to a great deal of heat. That is why competition shooters always kept their allotted ammo under their shooting blanket or some other cover: keep the Sun off the stuff. If Cordite-loaded ammo is permitted to get too hot, the first symptom you will see will be the slugs beginning to throw high. Old-time hunters were used to Cordite, as was the military. Ammunition which had been overheated (common in Africa) was put into storage in a cool, dark place (just like mushrooms or Canadian taxpayers) and left there for a period of weeks, during which the Nitroglycerine would re-absorb into the Cordite sticks and the ammunition would restabilise itself.

I keep a Cordite round with the bullet loosened and some of the sticks removed in my first-aid box: it is a powerful source of slow-release nitroglycerine, which happens to be a first-rate heart stimulant.
 
There seems to a lot of uncertainty about this. First, thank-you smellie for taking the time to clear up as much of the questions, that said, something that everyone should consider is Gun powder and cordite is just that powder. It may be pressed into strands, pellets, hell, even a pill if you wanted. Ever come across an old bottle of pills that has been in the back of cupboard for years and it has just broken down? Gun powder/cordite can do the same thing. Generally speaking, it is very stable, but if other things are added in to the equation, things can happen. temperature, vibrations, even case corrosion can factor in to ammunition issues.

I know of one case where a guy left a loaded magazine for his rifle in the glove compartment of his truck. Because of where he lived, and the road conditions he drove, but because of the hot and cold spikes in temperature over the 3/4 plus year between hunting season , along with the gravel road driven every day. The combination allowed the rifle powder to break down into fine powder, or dust, basically pistol powder. The next hunting season came along, and not only did the round go off with a bang, but so did the barrel. Luckily, he was not hurt, but the pressure of the round going off cracked the locking lugs, and threw everything so much out of wack that they had to beat open the action. The other rounds were pulled apart, and the powder lived up to its name, powder, very fine powder!
 
Interesting that the powder would have broken down that far. It certainly would have led to an increased burning-rate.

With Cordite you should not have this problem, the bundle of 'sticks' being pretty solidly into the casing. In fact, the casings were loaded as primed straight-drawn cases, the Cordite 'bundle' inserted and THEN the loaded casings were tapered and necked.

In such a situation, I would think the worst that could happen would be a batch of nitroglycerine or a batch of nitrocellulose which had not been de-acidified completely during manufacture. Trace amounts of acid would remain in the finished powder and continue to work slowly, eating away at finished chemicals until something had become destabilised in a dangerous manner.

It is for this reason that you should sniff a tin of powder when you open it. If it smells of solvents, there generally is nothing wrong. But if it smells ACID.... get rid of it.
 
mkrnel said:
I'm sure it was a Lee Enfield and not a P14 as part of the bolt was mentioned to have struck the son and in a P14 the bolt head is fully supported inside the receiver, and the bolt handle provides a 3rd safety lug that locks into the rear of the receiver. P14 are super strong actions and I have never heard of a bolt failing on them but they will rupture the receiver when a catastrophic failure happens with a overload.

It is common for the Lee Enfield rifles to suffer bolt head damage and bolt head failure with break up and then shrapnel of the bolt head, extractor and spring and screw when something goes wrong as it is a 2 piece unsupported weak point in the bolt lockup of these rifles, more so than most turn bolt action rifles.

I also think the original writer is wrong for thinking or calling it a "out of battery" firing, as Lee Enfields will not fire until the bolt is closed and handle is down.

Maybe these pictures will help show what happens with LE bolts when they fail - View attachment 10275View attachment 10276View attachment 10277
Click to expand...

Thanks for those pics.
Found this link:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=27425&highlight=GALLERY+DRAMAS
 
There IS a way for a Lee-Enfield, P-'14 or any of several other rifles to fire in an out-of-battery condition.

What would have to happen is the rifle being cycled and in the LOADING phase. The Bolt is almost all the way forward and is about to be turned into the Locking Recesses when the FIRING PIN breaks at the forward end of the threads or lugs holding it onto the Cocking-piece. The Firing-pin then releases and fires the round in the Chamber.

All that is holding the Rifle closed is the pressure of the Shooter's HAND against the Bolt-handle.

I have seen this happen with a P-'14. The Shooter's hand was mightily bruised and we never did find the Cocking-piece and the end of the Firing-pin, nor did we find the empty Casing, which exited the Rifle in a cloud of flame.

The Rifle was repaired through the installation of a new Firing-pin, Bolt Plug, Spring and Cocking-piece, tested and accounted for its Deer that year. I have the Rifle here.

I would think that a similar situation could possibly develop with almost any bolt rifle, with the possible exception of a Cooey. The Cooey, you will remember, only cocks AFTER the round is fully seated and the Bolt fully locked.
 
I remember seeing a video about recent Gallipoli undersea salvaging of battle wrecks and they were bring up heaps of loose cordite sticks from ship artillery that when lit it burned like it was new even after being exposed under the sea for 90 + years.
 
Water alone isn't a problem for smokeless powder :)

ht tp://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21258

"...They've stored the original batches of Bullseye and Unique under water for at least one hundred years, Every once in a while they pull some, dry it and load up test ammo to compare the original with the curent batch of powder. Now Bullseye and Unique are double based powders and if hey've stored well being under water for one hundred plus years..."
 
Sounds strange. The rifle is in a device and it reads as if he is sitting to the "right" of the rifle, so is his son then slightly forward of the rifle action? And how does it fire out of battery? He worked the bolt as normal and squeezed the trigger from the side.

288 round box sounds 303 British to me.
 
Single-ply plyboard box, holds 9 cardboard boxes of 32 rounds each.

Used to be a lot of those boxes around; even I have one. Nice handles on them.

Quite inefficient use of storage space, I thought.

Guess they wanted it for loading Bren mags: 30 for the mag, 1 spare and 1 for a takedown tool. Older boxes were better, held 48: 47 for the Lewis drum and 1 for a takedown tool. Really handy for target shooting, too: you got 4 lots of 12 rounds, keep you shooting all day at 10-round targets, 2 for sighters each. 48 rounds packed flat takes very little more space than 32 rounds packed standing up. Silly.
 
smellie said:
I keep a Cordite round with the bullet loosened and some of the sticks removed in my first-aid box: it is a powerful source of slow-release nitroglycerine, which happens to be a first-rate heart stimulant.
Click to expand...

During WW1 a number of misguided and probably over-stressed soldiers on the side of the western allies - note that I'm not saying whose army they were part of - were actually able to simulate having a heart attack by chewing the cordite from a broken-open cartridge, and were able, by this means, to be medically removed from the front lines until their condition stabilised a few days later, giving them some relief from the horrors of the trenches. My great Uncle Jack, who had served from 1915 to the end, had seen this happen.

g/u Jack also had a 'capital pick-me-up' that was almost guaranteed to raise the recently dead, unless the head had been blown off. Details by PM, if required.

tac
 
It was also an open-and-shut case of LMF.

In a combat zone, it was treated as Cowardice in the Face of the Enemy - SIW.

You were supposed to be shot by your own regiment.

Don't get caught.
 
Poor bastards. Considering how truly horrific the trenches were, I can't find it in my heart to condemn a man for finding any reasonable way to get out of them intact.

Smellie, I understand cordite production has ceased. Any idea when the last small arms cartridge was loaded with the stuff?
 
Well, India and Pakistan currently are the biggest users of .303 ammunition. I know that both had Cordite mills.

If anybody out there has any recent Pakistani- or Indian-production .303 ammo, they might check the bases. They stick pretty much to the old British specs, so there should be a Z on the base of a cartridge if it is loaded with anything EXCEPT Cordite. If you are not sure, give it a shake: Cordite does not rattle in the casing; it is packed solidly.

We made it here until about 1955 as I recall. It was used in all that DA ammo with the big Berdan primers. It was superceded about that time by IMR-type powders. I know I have a few type L Blanks here which are 1956 make; they are chopped pistol-type powder.

Iraq also had a Cordite mill, used the stuff in their .303 ammo for a long time.

All of that is a fancy way of saying "I don't know"!
 
All in all, an interesting story even if there are anomalies in it.

To be taken wisely as a reminder not to feed questionable ammos to your firearms.
Personally, I avoid such risks as I feel it is much safer and cheaper than the contrary.

I have a bucket full of 16 gauge I retrieved for disposal from an old relative recently. The shells have been negligently stored in that bucket in a humid basement for more than 40 years. They are filthy dirty, they reek mold and corrosion is present at the base. Rot is well present on the few with paper tube. A fellow insist at wanting to shoot them anyway. He got upset because I turned him down, not wanting to be related to any possible incident with them.

Maybe overly cautious, but nobody will get hurt and no shotgun will be scrapped.

Thanks for posting. A lot of educated observations & comments came out of it.
 
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