Recently shot a 8 point buck in a clear cut that was chasing does. Shot it in the ribs area and then a finishing shot to the back of the head as he was trying to get up. On skinning the deer there was no hole in the ribs just a big bruise. Is it plausible that I hit a branch or sapling that would cause the bullet to tumble yet still had enough force to knock the air out of him to knock him down ? I was shooting a 223 loaded with Hornady 60 grainers and 8208 powder at about 125 yards. Never had a problem with this load before and it has performed beautifully . Interested to hear your opinions
Tumbling bullet to knock down a deer?
- Thread starter jklutes
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black powder
CGN Regular
- Location
- Saint Hippolyte
60 gr. is for ground hogs, coyote, and racoones ..223 is not the perfect cal . for deer ..
I am very comfortable with my rifle, my loads and my shots. Shot placement trumps a magnum caliber in my book. Most of the deer I have shot have been 100 yards or less. I have shot game with up to a 338 win mag , and have gradually settled with the lighter calibers as the 223 and 243 and have not lost an animal . I had a strange occurrence happen and just wondered if anyone has had or know any studies I can read up on tumbling bullets that would shed light on what happened
Canadian_Zuk
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Pickering, Ontario
That depends what casued the tumble, what the bullet hit/went through on its way there. He can't even be sure it was a tumbling bullet. He said he was using handloads, it's possible it was an under charged case or otherwise defective handload (powder,primer).
The 6.5 Carcano was said to be tumbling when it blew a certain Former Presidents head open 50 years ago.
Anyways, have very little experience with the .223 on game animals ...
Obviously your bullet was a mysterious one ...
Best Regards,
Rob
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
OP, the bullet you chose is described by Hornady as having explosive expansion. Explosive expansion is not compatible with big game bullet performance. If you insist on shooting big game with a .22, and prefer Hornady products, I believe you would do better with a 55 gr GMX.
What the cause of the wound you observed was is difficult to say, but knowing the bullet's terminal performance design, one might conjecture. Perhaps it struck something close to the deer (a willow branch or grass) and came apart immediately before hitting the deer, which was then hit by just the jacket or a portion of the core which did not have enough mass to penetrate the skin. An intact tumbling bullet at 2500 fps, would penetrate. I'd be interested to know what your definition of beautiful big game bullet performance is. While its difficult to argue with meat in the freezer, I think the .224/60 gr Hornady SP is an example of how not to do it. If I was looking for a .22 caliber big game bullet, I'd choose the heaviest Barnes TSX compatible with the rifling twist of my barrel. I see that Hornady has suspended the manufacture of their 70 gr GMX.
What the cause of the wound you observed was is difficult to say, but knowing the bullet's terminal performance design, one might conjecture. Perhaps it struck something close to the deer (a willow branch or grass) and came apart immediately before hitting the deer, which was then hit by just the jacket or a portion of the core which did not have enough mass to penetrate the skin. An intact tumbling bullet at 2500 fps, would penetrate. I'd be interested to know what your definition of beautiful big game bullet performance is. While its difficult to argue with meat in the freezer, I think the .224/60 gr Hornady SP is an example of how not to do it. If I was looking for a .22 caliber big game bullet, I'd choose the heaviest Barnes TSX compatible with the rifling twist of my barrel. I see that Hornady has suspended the manufacture of their 70 gr GMX.
You came very close to losing a deer... 223 is not a deer caliber and this experience should tell you that... If it gets through ribs without obstruction and your shot placement is right it will do the job but unless you have x-ray vision and know where the ribs are then its a crapshoot... Why not use something more suitable... You claim shot placement is key "in your book"... I woukd suggest you have evidence otherwise based on your post..m
Had that deer not been knocked down, you would have lost your first, and you would have never known the reason why. And it's not like you have to choose between a magnum or a .223... there are lots of calibres in between that are perfect for deer and give you much more margin for error for when things go wrong. You've also just proven that shot placement isn't everything!
I find it hard to believe that N.B. allows deer to be shot with a .22 caliber ANYTHING. Even harder to believe is someone asking why their VARMINT bullet didn't go through a deer. Really? You have other more suitable guns, but choose the least ethical one to do the job with? Try to at least show you give a crap about the animals. Shooting a big game animal with a .22 is just a stunt to prove how smart you think you are or "how good a shot you are". For God sakes, your avatar has 3 guns infinitely more suitable for the job.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Just to be the devil's advocate,here were some pics on another forum that showed big surface wounds on deer from Barnes bullets that hit sideways fired from acceptable deer rifles.
No rifle or bullet is infallible, that's for sure, and there are many many states as well as some Canadian provinces that allow deer hunting with 22 center fores.
Ii would much rather use a .223 with a Barnes X than a 25/20 with any bullet
Cat
Realistically speaking, one offs of how a certain bullet performes are not evidence to me... The lost amd suffering animals and the failures never make the interwebs... Take the same shot the op did with any suitable caliber and you would have more than a bruise requiring follow up... No doubt evidence can be offered that sub par calibers have taken deer... The question is is this best practice and why would you choose this caliber when so many better and less risky are available?
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
The shot from the 22 center fire was also a "one off" as you call it.
As I stated before, I would certainly use a 22 centerfire before even considering something like a 25/20 - which is in fact legal in Alberta where the .223 is not.
But with the proper bullet, small bores kill deer every year elsewhere, and i doubt if any more are lost than those by people using bigger cartridges.
personally I don't like 6mm bullets for hunting , but many hunters do, and I have seen many deer lost to them from bad shooting, but they are a legal caliber to use , so people use them.
Lots of States allow hand gun hunting , but there are many up here opposed to hunting anything with a handgun, citing poor accuracy and lack of energy
among other things sating that they are unsuitable for hunting big game.
The dead animals from them and from centerfire small bores refute that.
Just because something is frowned upon in some areas of the country does not mean it is wrong or unsuitable.
cat
As I stated before, I would certainly use a 22 centerfire before even considering something like a 25/20 - which is in fact legal in Alberta where the .223 is not.
But with the proper bullet, small bores kill deer every year elsewhere, and i doubt if any more are lost than those by people using bigger cartridges.
personally I don't like 6mm bullets for hunting , but many hunters do, and I have seen many deer lost to them from bad shooting, but they are a legal caliber to use , so people use them.
Lots of States allow hand gun hunting , but there are many up here opposed to hunting anything with a handgun, citing poor accuracy and lack of energy
among other things sating that they are unsuitable for hunting big game.
The dead animals from them and from centerfire small bores refute that.
Just because something is frowned upon in some areas of the country does not mean it is wrong or unsuitable.
cat
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Likely due to the wrong twist barrel and Barnes monometal, longer bullets needing a quicker twist. I know my 1 in 14 22-250 won't stabilize Barnes 53 gr., though they don't keyhole. Either way, the type of bullet won't matter if energy figures are equal.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
No , these guns regularly fired the bullets with very good accuracy.
Just the way they hit the animal is all that could be figured by all that looked at them.
No brush was hit before hand either, another though that was asked.
It was posted on the 24 hour campfire, I'll see if I can find it.
IIRC it was a 30 cal Barnes X- may be wrong though.
Cat
Just the way they hit the animal is all that could be figured by all that looked at them.
No brush was hit before hand either, another though that was asked.
It was posted on the 24 hour campfire, I'll see if I can find it.
IIRC it was a 30 cal Barnes X- may be wrong though.
Cat
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A lot of shows on TV about that recently, Wasn't it one of the government rifles who ended up pulling the trigger!?
From one show I watched , it seemed to conclude that.
An Yep.. 223s are for coyotes an such!
WL
I can't either but here in BC you can shoot deer with centerfire not rimfire. It makes no distinction as to caliber. Foolish in my opinion but I don't make the rules...
You were there, you tell us. I have recovered on doe that I shot from the front, that I never did find the entry wound, or the bullet. Had I not seen her loop around, walk into a patch of buckbrush, and then keel over, she would have been food for the coyotes. That one was with a .308 Winchester shooting 180 grain bullets.
<shrug> I got nothing, as far as explaining it, without seeing it.
FWIW, I shot a BIG Mulie doe this year with a .223 with a 50 grain Winchester bulk bag bullet. I recovered 35 grains of that bullet, in multiple pieces, up against the leg bone on the far side of the deer from where I where I shot her.
That, after it went in through the ribs, trashed the lungs and heart, went out through the ribs on the offside, into the inside of the front shoulder, before coming to rest against the bone of the leg. Two steps walking, then over onto her nose!
A young lady was here on the property this season and shot her first deer, another big mulie doe, with another .223. I was not present to attest to the distance that one went, but it was measurable in inches, rather than yards. Heart was destroyed, lungs too. Found the base of the bullet up against the far side rib.
So much for the 'they blow up under the skin' theories I keep hearing from folks that have never tried the stuff out.
Cheers
Trev
OP - Light, high velocity loads are likely to tumble after hitting, say, a blade of grass. I think that is what happened.
The point of the projectile would be very likely to pierce the deer, even at low velocity. But when tumbling, or even just flying sideways, the increased surface area would make this less likely, especially with the reduced velocity that would result from having struck something. Also a lot of energy would be used up by the tumbling itself. There is no other logical explanation IMO. That deer got hit with a very small, but powerful bat.
I know there are those who believe that the round nose, heavy, low velocity brush bullet theory is BS.
Our ancestors believed that 30/30s were great brush guns, they learned this through experience in the bush.
So, back to the point, yes, I believe your bullet tumbled, due to contact with brush.
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