Turkish 88/05/35

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Eaglelord17

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Hi all,

Felt I would share with you all a underappreciated milsurp which there isn't really much discussion or information on. It is a Turkish 88/05/35. These were a conversion of Commission 88/05 Rifles to be more like a standard Turkish M38 rifle. To me this conversion was likely a large waste of resources, but it is interesting how far the Turks would go to keep rifles going. Many reused and recycled parts on these guns, and some somewhat ingenious solutions to problems.

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Note the rack number 18 on the stock as well as the stock disk which is essentially useless on these rifles
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New markings on the receiver, the original markings were scrubbed (I believe this was originally a Danzig receiver based on what little remains
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Originally would have said Gew 88 on it, now a serial number
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Barrel band off some other rifle, note the hole in it which there is no accommodation for on the Turkish stock retaining band
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Front action screw, it was originally longer until cut down by the Turks, note the retaining screw added which to me is a dumb feature (as 70 years later it doesn't rotate anymore)
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Inletting of the stock around the receiver

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Top view of the stock
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Side view of the stock, note they would have had to do custom inletting to make the 88/05/35 stocks as M38 stocks would have had double stacked magazines

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Reused stock reinforcing nut as it has the Imperial German acceptance stamp on it

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New Turkish barrel

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Side view of the new thread cover/handguard retainer/cleaning rod retainer/magazine retainer. They would have manufactured this part to cover the external threads which the barrel jacket screwed into and hold the new handguard on. They reused the magazine attachment point from the original barrel jacket, and drilled and tapped it sideways to allow the cleaning rod to thread into it. To accommodate this they cut down the length of the front action screw.

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Showing the crude manufacturing marks as well as the clear line in the receiver where the barrel jacket would have previously screwed in.

Overall it is a neat rifle, if crude. But just because it was crude doesn't mean it didn't work. A other interesting note is the rifle is now longer than it originally was, which is a accomplishment.

As a side note does anyone know what bayonet should fit on it? I have tried my Commission 88 bayonet, and a cutdown German 98/05 bayonet, but both didn't fit.
 
What I'm finding incredible is that all of those Turkish Gew88 and Mausers are used up mercilessly,down to the bone and Turkey hasn't been at war since early 1920s.

They do have ongoing issues with Kurds for many years but just how much shooting do solders on "policing" duty?

Those rifles I saw were well maintained and not neglected but how some of them are shot out reminds me of those few Chinese Mausers I have seen.

btw, I don't think 88/05/35s are underappreciated.Based on the speed they do "puff" from EE I'd say whey are wanted.
 
Turkey tends not to throw anything out until it is at the end of its life. Many of the milsurps we have tend to have been refurbished before being sold off, the Turks not so much.

I would argue they are underappreciated in terms of knowledge out there, and desirability. They do tend to sell quickly on the EE but that is also likely due to the fact they are one of the few milsurps you can buy in the 250-400$ range. Like all the Commission 88 variants they just tend to not be as interesting to people as there replacements are. To each their own.
 
Read an article in "International Military Rifle Journal" that the Turks bought 100,000 Gew88 actions in the 20s and that is what they built the 88/05/35 from.
 
The actions and magazines are 88/05 parts that were repurposed into the 88/05/35. I would be sceptical with the idea of them buying 100,000 actions as that wouldn't explain the quantity of old Imperial parts in the rifles (they would have had to make new parts from scratch if they were building that quantify of rifles).

My theory is that the Turks decided to try and update the 88/05s they had in stock to the new standard they were going for (along with everything else they were updating). They then realized how much they were spending to essentially modify a serviceable firearm (already in 8mm Mauser, feeding system is unchanged) and decided to leave the rest of the stock as is (also the fact that the 88/05/35 would likely be more a reserve rifle than main arm also could have had a effect). This is all conjecture, but unfortunately there isn't much information out there other than hearsay. I haven't even been able to find a decent estimate as to how many of these rifles exist.

Like much of the information regarding Commission 1888 based rifles, it is severely lacking, or simply wrong. It is part of what makes it interesting to collect, but also what is frustrating, as so much misinformation is spread about the Commission 88 series of rifles, it really makes it hard to separate fact from fiction.
 
Considering the manner in which the war was fought in the campaign from Suez to Aleppo, it is not surprising that Turkey would be in the market for actions after the end of the Great War, They had to have SOMETHING and they came out of Allenby's war with just about zero. British troops advancing after blasting Johnny Turk loose from Gaza were highly mobile. My old friend Sgt. Angus Kellie told me that they kept Johnny rolling. Sgt. Kellie himself had a nice Holt tractor to pull his 6-inch How Mark VIII and its limber and they were moving as quickly as the tractor would allow, trying to keep the Turkish Army off-balance. If you need proof, look at the dates for the series of battles, Gaza, Be'ersheba, Jerusalem, Armageddon and then onward.

The Turks were fighting right in their own back yard, so to speak, and the British were at a considerable disadvantage, fighting a massive war in Europe and then the war many miles away in Palestine. Everything had to be imported and brought, much by sheer muscle-power, to where it would be used. Before Gaza, Sgt. Kellie told me, they stacked ammunition for the guns for a month, using a 2-foot railroad and muscle power. The 6-inch How had 2 shells, a heavy shell of 122 pounds and a light shell of "only" 100 pounds. Kellie used to carry one on each shoulder..... for a month. When the time came for the preliminary bombardment of the Turkish lines, they had two complete crews per gun, the firing continued on a 24-hour basis..... and they shot off ALL that ammunition in just 4 days. The British could not stop except at great hazard: even the distillate for the Holt tractors had to be imported, not even to mention spares, ammunition, aid supplies, field hospitals..... and rations. Fifty years after the campaign, Sgt. Kellie told me that he bore no ill-will toward Johnny Turk, but that there were three things in this world which he DID hate: Camels, Fray Bentos Corned Beef (on which he lived from 1915 to 1921)..... and Field-Marshal Haig!

Once they got the Turkish Army to start moving, the British kept it up, continual motion if at all possible. But here another problem reared its head: what to do with the thousands of PRISONERS taken? The British were operating at their limit; they just did not have enough manpower to fight a war AND look after immense hordes of Turkish prisoners. In the end, Johnny Turk was disarmed, the battlefields policed-up for weapons, Johnny was told to go home..... and the huge piles of beautiful Turkish Mausers (1890, 1892, 1903 and the rifles they had received from Germany during the war -- 1888 Commission rifles and 98 Mausers -- were piled in heaps, doused with distillate from the tractors...... and set alight. "They burned beautifully!", said Sgt. Kellie. By the end of the War, Turkey had only a small fraction of the rifles they needed to keep order in and defend what part of their Empire they had remaining to them. The situation was bad enough that even France took pity on Turkey and supplied them with a batch of second-hand Berthiers, now famous as the source of the despised "Turkish Forestry Carbines".

In Germany the situation was completely the reverse: the once-massive German Army was reduced by the Versailles Treaty from about 4 million, all the way down to a mere 100,000 men. Literally MILLIONS of rifles had to be turned over to the Allies (4 million under the Treaty) but Germany HAD a lot more than 4 million rifles, for they had previously EQUIPPED that vast Army with 1871s, with 1871/84s, with 1888s and finally with 1898s. Heaps of rifles went to Poland..... along with a couple of FACTORIES. The same happened to Czechoslovakia. Europe was awash with surrendered rifles, artillery pieces and Maxim guns and it was everything the Germans could do to select the best of the best for equipping the new Reichswehr rather lavishly..... and they still had hundreds of thousands to be disposed-of. What more natural than to disassemble 100,000 1888 actions and send those to Turkey? That, I believe, is what happened.

I have an 1888/35: one of the ugliest rifles I own. But under that grime there is a BEAUTIFUL piece of high-quality Walnut: Turkish, of course. The rifles clean up wonderfully with a bit of steam, some time..... and a most thorough degreasing. And they shoot wonderfully well just as long as they are bedded sensibly. They are a GREAT piece of history.
 
Thanks very much for that ^, smellie. Once again, I've learned something new and interesting.
 
That is a more thorough explanation that definitely could explain the origins of these rifles. I really appreciate you sharing it.

I also have heard (again hearsay) that apparently the British didn't always burn the rifles instead demilitarizing them my ordering them to surrender their bolts (which would explain the quantity of Czech manufactured bolts on the Commission 88/05s owned by Turkey). In any case, definitely interesting rifles with a lot of mostly ignored history.
 
The British grabbing the Bolts definitely would make sense; the rifle is no good without it.

I, too, have noticed the mid-1920s Czech bolts (marked with the CZ monogram common on Jawa motorcycles) in some rifles. This would have been no problem for the Czechs to produce because they had been given a couple of factories which formerly had made the complete rifles.

As to the Turkish rifles as issued, they seem to be awfully scarce on the ground these days. They were, of course, in calibre 7.65x53 Mauser; the 7.92 only became the official Turkish ammunition after the end of the Great War as a result of the wholesale destruction of Turkish rifles during the war and the continuing supplies from Germany. German rifles, of course, were 7.92x57. Considering that Turkey was already using the 9.5 black-powder round in some older rifles, plus the 7.65 in more recent rifles, the addition of the 7.92mm must have created some splendid headaches in the Turkish Quartermaster Stores!

Sgt. Kellie himself had a Turkish Mauser as a personal souvenir for a while. He said that it was beautifully made and shot very well but that it did not fit the brackets on the British limbers. It ended up in one of the burning piles, thus keeping it out of Johnny Turk's hands. Most interesting to me as a sort-of-historian was the fact that, after siting his gun, Sgt. Kellie observed Allenby's entry into Jerusalem through binoculars. At another point he very nearly ran into General Allenby himself (a situation no mere Sergeant wishes) when their train on the Hejaz Railway was stopped in its pursuit of the Turkish Army. Allenby was talking with "some crazy Englishman with a big nose, little sawed-off character, dressed half in bits of uniform, half in Arab clothes, living out in the desert with the Arabs and telling Allenby how to run the war". He then added, "That was Lawrence of Arabia; I didn't know anything about him until I saw the movie, back home in Scotland, after the War!"

Sergeant Kellie's medals have been donated to the 26th Field/12th Manitoba Dragoons Museum in Brandon, Manitoba. I am proud to have known Sgt. Angus Kellie, regret only that I did not know him a lot better. He was a big, powerful man even into his 80s, an absolute gentleman and a FINE piper!
 
Great to see smelliest in action once more!

I know a lucky young man who fanaggled a nice Turk 88 out of my pile. Young man, how about a pic or two of that rifle? :)
 
Here's the pictures that may help with the bayo questions.

This rifle is way up there with my most prized in the collection. Kjohn graciously let me be it's new owner a couple years ago and I've studied it and enjoyed it ever since.

It is an 88/05/35 that is 100% matching and looks to be almost unfired. I've never loaded a round into it and it will say that way.

What also makes this one very uncommon is its wearing a matching bayonet with unmatched scabard .



It's has the most strikingly figured wood and the bluing is a deep deep black and highly polished.



It's stamped Ankara 1935



The action, bolt , sights and bayo all match.


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The bayo is like a 1938 model but it longer and wears a leather wrapped scabbard.

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It's the only Turkish mauser I've seen with a matching bolt. As Smellie mentioned the bolts were pulled on rifles rendering them as nothing more then sticks. My research has backed that up by studying 1/2 a dozen 1938 pattern rifles.
 
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I don't want to hijack this thread but I figured I'd post some more pics in this thread as photobucket killed all my old threads with their BS a few months back.

In studying M38 pattern rifles I've noticed several distinct differences by year. I've pulled out a couple here to show the things that all rifles seem to have in common and what is different depending on year of manufacture.

If anyone has a rifle that is different from the normal patterns id love to see and hear about it.

Here's 2 rifles a 1940 and a 1942 dated M38 that fits certain patterns.

The 1940 (bottom) has highly figured circassion walnut which seems to be what all 1938 to 1940 rifles have.



Notice a typical handgaurd repair. Often these repairs are well done but age has caused the wood to shrink at different rates and the repair may stick up higher then the handgaurd rendering the rear sight useless under 500 meters.

The earlier 1940 action is stamped on the top at the rear and the 1942 is numbered on the left front like a normal Mauser action. I've notice this is common.



Both rifles have matching actions, barrels and rear sights. The bolts match themselves but not the rifles they are in. Seems to back up the the stories that the bolts were removed.

Another note is earlier rifles (pre 1941 bottom of picture) seem to have steel take down disc centers and butt plate bolts. Later guns have brass butt plate bolts and take down disk centers. A steel shortage during the second war is probably why they switched to brass.



Here's a picture with a 1940 (top), 1942 (middle) and the 1935 marked 88/05/35 (bottom).



I love Turkish mausers and I hope to collect more and more to see if the patterns I've noticed continue to be true.
 
Are you sure this Turkish bayo?Looks like Spanish/Latin American bayo to me.

Odds of finding uncut Turkish bayo with leather scabbard must be very slim.

btw-very nice Mausers and good pictures of them too.I have 1940 dated one,works well,shoots well but sight picture is horrible due to very worn out sights (all surfaces are round and polished from wear).
 
donor said:
Are you sure this Turkish bayo?Looks like Spanish/Latin American bayo to me.

Odds of finding uncut Turkish bayo with leather scabbard must be very slim.

btw-very nice Mausers and good pictures of them too.I have 1940 dated one,works well,shoots well but sight picture is horrible due to very worn out sights (all surfaces are round and polished from wear).
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If the bay wasn't serial to the rifle I'd be suspect. But being it matches, the gun is correct and all matching even with the sling I'm guessing it is the right bayonet.

Kjohn may know more as he's the one who discovered the rifle
 
These rifles have been zooming up and down Number 1 Highway and I haven't seen them until now, even though I am halfway between these characters! MY 1888/05/35 obviously needs a better cleaning, being still caked with cosmoline and dried-on BLO. I paid $39.95 for it from SIR and it is a good, solid, serviceable rifle, although a bit on the wonky side. I won't show it here for obvious reasons.

Tinman, these are magnificent rifles. They show that those ratty old critters WERE like and CAN BE like..... and they can be awfully darned nice. Photographs are excellent, also, and that is no mean feat on its own.

Thanks for showing!

After this, I DARE anyone to say anything against Turkish-rebuilt rifles!
 
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