Well..., I've been pretty pointed in my letters... Demanding the PM call the RCMP & CBSA to account on this issue... I hope others have been doing the same!
Cheers
Jay
Type 97 Classification Issues - PART TWO
- Thread starter Clobbersauras
- Start date
Well..., I've been pretty pointed in my letters... Demanding the PM call the RCMP & CBSA to account on this issue... I hope others have been doing the same!
Cheers
Jay
Just got off the phone with CFC first was told that its PROHIB ,but they could not tell me why or which 12X it was contained in. Then transferred to RCMP where I was told it was "UNDER REVIEW" AND BASICALLY IN THE SAME BOAT AS THE WALTHER G22. After pointing out that has been under review for 5 years ,she agreed and said the stopping of this order was from "HIGHER UP". When I asked about my friend's restricted that he already owns, I enquired as to whether he would be grandfathered or face CONFISCATION --she informed me it would definately be a "ENFORCEMENT" situation.
I am at this point NOT FEELING GOOD ABOUT THIS and told her I feel as if the RCMP is merely putting it in LIMBO as they don't like the gun but they cannot prohib by law so they are making their own rules ---she somewhat agreed.
In my opinion this is not looking good.
I am at this point NOT FEELING GOOD ABOUT THIS and told her I feel as if the RCMP is merely putting it in LIMBO as they don't like the gun but they cannot prohib by law so they are making their own rules ---she somewhat agreed.
In my opinion this is not looking good.
I say it looks better.
Looks like RCMP is having difficulty to enforce its "prohibited firearm" decision.
From my experience, government guys can't be that smart to set up a trap for comming 97A. They are trained to do politically correct things until they hit the reality wall, then they are like "now what?"
Chris just took time from his busy schedule to soothe my fears. They (CANAM ) are fighting the good fight. I truely wish them well.
I'll now go back to the sidelines and worry about other things in my life .
Thanks for the hard work CANAM
I'll now go back to the sidelines and worry about other things in my life .
Thanks for the hard work CANAM
+1 from me CanAm!!! Now what would be sweet is if they were released in time for my annual camping trip!!! Oh man, that would be SWEET!!!
Cheers
Jay
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I talked to another gentleman at the CFC today. I was given this contact by a board member (thank you). He knew much more regarding the situation than any of the other CFC techs I've talked to. He was pleasant to talk to and I was told some very interesting information that I'll share. I'll repeat what he said as best as I can remember and decipher from my notes....
1) He was NOT willing to discuss specific companies as he said there is an ongoing investigation.
2)He said that the rumors being written on CGN are just that; rumors, and no formal decision regarding the Type 97 has been made.(Yes the RCMP know all about CGN and read it daily).
3)The current issue with the Type 97 is ONLY with the "recent shipment".
4)This is now purely a customs issue (From their position I guess). The CFC was given samples of the "recent shipment" (remember he wouldn't discuss specific company names) which they inspected and instructed customs on their ruling regarding their classification. It is now up to customs to make a decision.
5) They used the Supreme Court Hasselwander decision regarding the convertibility aspect of the rife to make their ruling. He said they are obligated to follow this court decision (see below for more details). He said: "this is not something we just cooked up".
6) He said that the "original shipment" of rifles are NOT being reviewed but that doesn't mean that they may not be at a later date.
7) In THIS situation they had actual rifles to review. With the first shipment they did not.
I don't want to speculate on what he said, but I've made my own conclusions, which are unsettling to me. I am sad about the implications this has on the firearms community.
I feel badly for Chris and Canada Ammo. Fight the good fight.
Here is a link to the Hasselwander decision:
http://csc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1993/1993rcs2-398/1993rcs2-398.html
Here is an except from another ruling where they used Hasselwander... (here's the link:http://www.citt.gc.ca/appeals/decision/ap97043_e.asp)
Having examined the evidence on the basis of the criteria in Hasselwander, the Tribunal finds that the reconversion of the goods in issue to the automatic mode was done in a relatively short period of time, ranging from 30 seconds to 37 minutes. The Tribunal notes, in this regard, that, in Special Missions Group, reconversion work ranging from five minutes to one hour was found to fall within the parameters of the Hasselwander decision. As to the relative ease with which the reconversion was made, the Tribunal is of the view that among the factors to consider are the type of tools involved (including the general, as opposed to the specialized, nature of the tools involved, their complexity, etc.) and the availability of the parts or the ease with which they can be either adapted or replaced. The Tribunal notes, in this regard, that the testimony of the respondent's expert was that the reconversion took place not in a machine shop but merely in the armourer's workshop of the Calgary Police Service. The tools used included a drill press, a grinder, a Dremel tool, an arc welding set, an acetylene torch, emery paper, files, grinding stones and hacksaws. As to the parts used, only in one instance was it necessary to make a piston head, otherwise the piston heads were found with the firearms. In the Tribunal's view, most of the tools used are not complex, while the parts used were readily available or were easy to replace and, therefore, the reconversion also meets the second test of Hasselwander. The Tribunal finally notes that counsel for the appellant has made no arguments regarding the three types of firearms that were able to fire in the automatic mode as taken from the shipment.
1) He was NOT willing to discuss specific companies as he said there is an ongoing investigation.
2)He said that the rumors being written on CGN are just that; rumors, and no formal decision regarding the Type 97 has been made.(Yes the RCMP know all about CGN and read it daily).
3)The current issue with the Type 97 is ONLY with the "recent shipment".
4)This is now purely a customs issue (From their position I guess). The CFC was given samples of the "recent shipment" (remember he wouldn't discuss specific company names) which they inspected and instructed customs on their ruling regarding their classification. It is now up to customs to make a decision.
5) They used the Supreme Court Hasselwander decision regarding the convertibility aspect of the rife to make their ruling. He said they are obligated to follow this court decision (see below for more details). He said: "this is not something we just cooked up".
6) He said that the "original shipment" of rifles are NOT being reviewed but that doesn't mean that they may not be at a later date.
7) In THIS situation they had actual rifles to review. With the first shipment they did not.
I don't want to speculate on what he said, but I've made my own conclusions, which are unsettling to me. I am sad about the implications this has on the firearms community.
I feel badly for Chris and Canada Ammo. Fight the good fight.
Here is a link to the Hasselwander decision:
http://csc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1993/1993rcs2-398/1993rcs2-398.html
Here is an except from another ruling where they used Hasselwander... (here's the link:http://www.citt.gc.ca/appeals/decision/ap97043_e.asp)
Having examined the evidence on the basis of the criteria in Hasselwander, the Tribunal finds that the reconversion of the goods in issue to the automatic mode was done in a relatively short period of time, ranging from 30 seconds to 37 minutes. The Tribunal notes, in this regard, that, in Special Missions Group, reconversion work ranging from five minutes to one hour was found to fall within the parameters of the Hasselwander decision. As to the relative ease with which the reconversion was made, the Tribunal is of the view that among the factors to consider are the type of tools involved (including the general, as opposed to the specialized, nature of the tools involved, their complexity, etc.) and the availability of the parts or the ease with which they can be either adapted or replaced. The Tribunal notes, in this regard, that the testimony of the respondent's expert was that the reconversion took place not in a machine shop but merely in the armourer's workshop of the Calgary Police Service. The tools used included a drill press, a grinder, a Dremel tool, an arc welding set, an acetylene torch, emery paper, files, grinding stones and hacksaws. As to the parts used, only in one instance was it necessary to make a piston head, otherwise the piston heads were found with the firearms. In the Tribunal's view, most of the tools used are not complex, while the parts used were readily available or were easy to replace and, therefore, the reconversion also meets the second test of Hasselwander. The Tribunal finally notes that counsel for the appellant has made no arguments regarding the three types of firearms that were able to fire in the automatic mode as taken from the shipment.
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cobra_on_speed
Regular
So my question then is, if the issue is only then with the current shipment, then is your rifle still in review, or it's transferability suspended, or why was your rifle under review anyway?
I think this is good and bad information. Bad in that it doesn't look good for the release of the rifles, although any thing can happen. But, good in the sense that,
1. It's info,
2. It can be looked at as a learning experience, and whatever maybe holding this shipment back, could possibly be corrected in the future to allow other possible shipments in
I think this is good and bad information. Bad in that it doesn't look good for the release of the rifles, although any thing can happen. But, good in the sense that,
1. It's info,
2. It can be looked at as a learning experience, and whatever maybe holding this shipment back, could possibly be corrected in the future to allow other possible shipments in
Clob, thanks for the update...obviously we all have questions about these points. Mine are:
Obviously we are talking CanAm here right? Or are there other companies (Marstar? Lever?) that have also tried to import this model or other versions of the 97?
If no formal decision has been made, what have they been doing with the "samples" for the last four months? And if they are reading this...c'mon guys, cut 'em loose, the gophers are getting knee deep.
The only difference with this shipment is the barrel length...I smell horse manure... Also, then why are restricted Type 97 transfers being held up?
How would this now be a customs issue if (see #2) there has not been a formal decision yet? But there has been a "ruling"? Is this different from a formal decision? And the only decision CBSA needs to make is seize or release depending on the "ruling" right? CBSA has to follow the law; Legal goods: permit entry. Prohibited goods: seize. But if they make a prohib ruling, they need to make it a law for CBSA to enforce.
What's the expression? There's something fishing in Denmark... If he says they are obligated to follow Hasselwander does this mean he's making an excuse for a prohibited determination or is he giving us a hint that more than a hour of cutting and hacking didn't make it go FA so we will will finally get our toys...
I'm as confused as I was before the update...but more pissed off...
Obviously we are talking CanAm here right? Or are there other companies (Marstar? Lever?) that have also tried to import this model or other versions of the 97?
If no formal decision has been made, what have they been doing with the "samples" for the last four months? And if they are reading this...c'mon guys, cut 'em loose, the gophers are getting knee deep.
The only difference with this shipment is the barrel length...I smell horse manure... Also, then why are restricted Type 97 transfers being held up?
How would this now be a customs issue if (see #2) there has not been a formal decision yet? But there has been a "ruling"? Is this different from a formal decision? And the only decision CBSA needs to make is seize or release depending on the "ruling" right? CBSA has to follow the law; Legal goods: permit entry. Prohibited goods: seize. But if they make a prohib ruling, they need to make it a law for CBSA to enforce.
What's the expression? There's something fishing in Denmark... If he says they are obligated to follow Hasselwander does this mean he's making an excuse for a prohibited determination or is he giving us a hint that more than a hour of cutting and hacking didn't make it go FA so we will will finally get our toys...
I'm as confused as I was before the update...but more pissed off...
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I only reported what I was told. I'll try to give my opinion, but it is only my opinion.
They haven't been sitting on them. He said that they have given their ruling to Customs and the ball in in their court.
I assume Lever and Canada Ammo.
They haven't been sitting on them. He said that they have given their ruling to Customs and the ball in in their court.
Not sure.
I have no answers for this.
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Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Sorry, missed your post. AFAIK (as of last week) my rifle is still restricted but I'm not allowed to transfer it. The guy I talked to today said "it sounds about right" when I asked him if this was correct.
The G22 is non restricted. The stock is prohibited. Fun eh.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Soooooo...what was it?
