Under max load, primers flat

Greg S

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I've loaded some 308 Win cases with 45grains of IMR4895 behind a 150 SPBT and am getting flattened primers. Very noticeable. I've not seen a case separation before so I'm wondering if a little line on the case body is the start of a cases separation. All this with 2.3 grains less than the Hodgeson site says is the max load for IMR4895 in this application. The bore is clean so I doubt I'm building excessive pressures because of that. Can the gun itself cause flattened primers? It's a Savage 99. What's up?

I'm obviously going to use less powder in the future, and after the fact, I see that 45 gains is max according to my Speer #10. Even so, I wouldn't expect their max load to be causing pressure warnings.
 
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What is listed as max is max in their test rifles/ barrels. Yours may be less. A mod 99 is less solid lock up than a bolt rifle. Make sure your chamber is oil free and your brass is lube free. Is extraction difficult? (lever opens easily)
 
Playing with explosives here. This is why it is always a safe practice is to always...always....always start with stated min loads and work up. Even more so when seating bullets to touch. Also, some primers have softer jackets than others, ie win (softer) vs CCI (harder).
Careful with headspace. Over doing the sizing, or a sloppy chamber will weaken brass over time. Try cutting a piece above the line. Where there is an obvious ring...toss the brass because it may fail any time ahead. This can also be done with a paper clip, but seeing it will take it home more effectively.
 
The maximum given loads just can't be reached by all rifles. There are numerous factors that can lead to high pressure. Too much case resizing is a very common issue for flat primers. The first thing I'd personally check is the resizing of the brass. If that's not what you did first, take a spent case, back off your resizing die, and resize just a little at the time, chambering the case everytime until the bolt closes without force. Reload some cases backing off 1 or 2 grains and increment until you reach your "hot load", shoot and check for signs again.
Case head separation occurs when the case stretches too much and is usually a sign of either excessive headspace ofr too much resizing.

P1010060.jpg


P1010059.jpg


BTW, don't want to be a #####, but smokeless powder is not an explosive.
 
Well there is a whole bunch of variables that peak pressure.
Case to long pinching bullet.
Excess crimp.
Compacting powder when seating bullet.
Your method of measuring powder is out a few grains.
Bullet is touching lands causing a spike in pressure.
This is to name a few.
Play safe start low and work your way up for accuracy.
 
If the action opens easily and there are no other signs of high pressure, it may be that during case sizing, the case shoulder is being set back too much and creating a condition similar to excess headspace. As mentioned, try adjusting the sizing die.
 
It is normal for primers to flatten some. I only start to get real concerned when they flatten to the point there is almost no gap between the primer and case, and when you start to see a bit of a rim around the firing pin crater. You can feel it with your fingernail.

With real excessive pressure the primer pocket will expand and gas will leak between the primer and case. Also if you have an extractor pin, the brass will start to flow back into the pin recess. At lower pressures it will just leave a slight mark. Not sure if lever guns have extractor pins or not. Most bolts do.

The line around the case and head separation is not caused by excessive pressure. It is caused by excessive headspace and repeated sizings with a FL die that bumps the shoulder back too far. You can control it by short stroking when resizing so the shoulder is only bumped back one or two thou.
 
I've loaded some 308 Win cases with 45grains of IMR4895 behind a 150 SPBT and am getting flattened primers. Very noticeable. I've not seen a case separation before so I'm wondering if a little line on the case body is the start of a cases separation. All this with 2.3 grains less than the Hodgeson site says is the max load for IMR4895 in this application. The bore is clean so I doubt I'm building excessive pressures because of that. Can the gun itself cause flattened primers? It's a Savage 99. What's up?

I'm obviously going to use less powder in the future, and after the fact, I see that 45 gains is max according to my Speer #10. Even so, I wouldn't expect their max load to be causing pressure warnings.

I am using almost the same load as you. 155 gr HPBT, and 45 gr H4895. Have had no issues. I think IMR 4895 is faster burning that H 4895. Maybe try switching to H?
 
BTW, don't want to be a #####, but smokeless powder is not an explosive.

Actually, modern smokeless power IS an explosive. A low explosive, which undergoes deflagration instead of detonation when loaded properly. The potential for detonation is why using massively reduced loads can be just as dangerous as overloading.

It is not a high explosive, but it most certainly is a low explosive.

-M
 
It sounds like the OP's problem is simply that he is resizing his brass excessively, creating excessive headspace and brass stretch. Try PFLR your cases and see if the primer flattening stops.
 
Actually, modern smokeless power IS an explosive. A low explosive, which undergoes deflagration instead of detonation when loaded properly. The potential for detonation is why using massively reduced loads can be just as dangerous as overloading.

It is not a high explosive, but it most certainly is a low explosive.

-M

You and I sure don't agree on smokeless powder! I claim not an explosive. I came to that conclusion long before I saw this, picture enclosed, in the Speer #9 reloading manual.
My big argument is that smokeless powder, world wide, is considered a flammable substance and not explosive, for shipping anywhere in the world.
P001-2.jpg
 
You and I sure don't agree on smokeless powder! I claim not an explosive. I came to that conclusion long before I saw this, picture enclosed, in the Speer #9 reloading manual.
My big argument is that smokeless powder, world wide, is considered a flammable substance and not explosive, for shipping anywhere in the world.

Semantic argument, and cannot truly be resolved. In effect, what you guys are arguing about is the definition of the word "explosive" as though there was a perfectly unambiguous and universally recognized definition.

"High explosive" has a pretty clear definition (supersonic shock wave), while "low" is a bit more vague. Also, "propellant" and "explosive" are not exclusive -- "explosive" is a materials classification, while "propellant" is a use for a material.

I agree that many jurisdictions classify smokeless powder as something like a "combustible solid", or even have a special classification for smokeless itself. Other jurisdictions classify it as an explosive for the purposes of things like transportation and storage. I believe there are jurisdictions that might have different designations for different amounts: in effect, saying that it only becomes an explosive when you have enough of it. Other jurisictions and contexts term it as an explosive.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether you think things that deflagrate are low explosives or not.
 
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Bruce, I think what DocM is referring to is a UN edict that is trying to get member nations to reclassify smokeless powder as an explosive and therefore eliminate hand loading in member nations. They would then require special permits and special storage facilities for even small quantities of powder.

Flattened primers are not always a sign of high pressure. Sometimes it just means you have a batch of very ductile metal in the primer cap. It may also mean the batch of powder you are using is slightly hotter than the last batch. Powder and primers both, vary from lot to lot. They are very seldom ever the same. That's a fact of life and isn't something that is advertised but it isn't denied by the manufacturers either. To tell the truth, I'm surprised at how good the quality control really is between manufacturers. The powder you buy in any lot, that has the same lot number, will all be made in one plant in one run and it has all been blended for consistency.

One little trick many of us use is to buy powder in 8lb kegs whenever possible. If we have to buy by the pound with different lot numbers on the containers, we pour them all together in one batch and mix it all together. This will give you one big batch of consistent powder.

When you buy a new can of powder and it has a different lot number from your last can, it may not even have been made in the same country, let alone the same factory. Powder is made to plus or minus quickness factors and so are primers. It is impossible to get the components that go into their make up to be absolutely identical every time. Not only that, it would make powder about 10 times more expensive than it is now.

When you get a different lot number of powder, you should start a few grains below your normal load. I know, for the penny pinched and time pinched, it's a pain in the butt but if you're loading to max pressures, it is necessary. A few grains less than max specs will usually boil down to less than 25 fps in any different bullet weight. Max pressure loads are hard on the rifle as well. They nitride and erode throats which gives shorter barrel life. Not really worth it. As you get older, 25 fps won't seem like much of a trade off. Especially when you have a rifle that is a proven performer and it is one you want to pass on to an admirer.

As mentioned before, there are many factors that create pressure differences. Not all bullet, primers, powders, rifle chambers and bores are made to equal spec. They will usually conform to specified tolerances but could be anywhere in between.
 
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Bruce, I think what DocM is referring to is a UN edict that is trying to get member nations to reclassify smokeless powder as an explosive and therefore eliminate hand loading in member nations. They would then require special permits and special storage facilities for even small quantities of powder.

While this IS a vile regulation, it was not what I was referring to.

The principal ingredient in smokeless powder is nitrocellulose (or nitrocellulose dissolved in nitroglycerin, for double base). Nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin are both primary explosives, ergo I classify smokeless powder as a de facto explosive.

The fact that it does not high-order detonate when adulterated with various other additives designed to moderate its combustion/detonation does not, to me, change the fact that it is an explosive. Not a massively dangerous one, and not one requiring special regulation (least of all by the despicable UN), but still nominally an explosive.

For example, TNT can deflagrate without detonating - but TNT is still an explosive. RDX mixed with plasticizers is still an explosive (C4). Nitrocellulose (or nitrocellulose dissolved in another explosive, nitroglycerin) is still, to me, nominally an explosive. Controlling its deflagration to prevent detonation means it does not high-order detonate when used properly, and makes smokeless powder infinitely safer (and more useful!) than nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin alone... but I still think of smokeless powder as an explosive being used via controlled deflagration.

What I think about it, however, is moot - the fact of the matter is that all of us know how to use it responsibly, and do NOT require any excessive government regulation to "keep us safe" (read: disarm the civilian populace).

-M
 
Well there is a whole bunch of variables that peak pressure.
Case to long pinching bullet.
Excess crimp.
Compacting powder when seating bullet.
Your method of measuring powder is out a few grains.
Bullet is touching lands causing a spike in pressure.
This is to name a few.
Play safe start low and work your way up for accuracy.

x2 well explained Tiggr
 
I've loaded some 308 Win cases with 45grains of IMR4895 behind a 150 SPBT and am getting flattened primers. Very noticeable. I've not seen a case separation before so I'm wondering if a little line on the case body is the start of a cases separation. All this with 2.3 grains less than the Hodgeson site says is the max load for IMR4895 in this application. The bore is clean so I doubt I'm building excessive pressures because of that. Can the gun itself cause flattened primers? It's a Savage 99. What's up?

I'm obviously going to use less powder in the future, and after the fact, I see that 45 gains is max according to my Speer #10. Even so, I wouldn't expect their max load to be causing pressure warnings.

I checked a old IMR (free paper hand out about 10ys old)

BY DATA IN IT YOU OVERLOADED your case

in it max load is (308)
rem 150g
IMR 44.5g vel 2780 , 52000cup with
rem case rem 9-1/2 primer 2.700 COL

OLD speer book (308)
150g bullet
Start 41.0 vel 2489
middle 43.0 vel 2599
max 45.0 vel 2717

So by one you are over and the other you are in max charge

So not :eek: your primers are flat

I always compare data from different sources and work up
 
Actually, modern smokeless power IS an explosive. A low explosive, which undergoes deflagration instead of detonation when loaded properly. The potential for detonation is why using massively reduced loads can be just as dangerous as overloading.

It is not a high explosive, but it most certainly is a low explosive.

-M

Aside from the fact labs have never been able to duplicate "detonation" claims in labs you might want to consider cast boolit shooters have been using reduced charges in rifle cases for years with great results and there guns aren't exploding into pieces. Despite your comments smokeless powder is not an explosive as you claim. Suugestions that it is are nothing more than internet noise.

Take Care

Bob
 
Aside from the fact labs have never been able to duplicate "detonation" claims in labs you might want to consider cast boolit shooters have been using reduced charges in rifle cases for years with great results and there guns aren't exploding into pieces. Despite your comments smokeless powder is not an explosive as you claim. Suugestions that it is are nothing more than internet noise.

A while back I did a ladder test of a belted magnum, starting with the very minimum recommended load of H4831. Here is a picture of what the first three lowest load cases looked like.

Dents.jpg


And here is a picture of the primers of selected cases. The one on the left is one of the dented ones. The one in the middle is a middle of the range load (more than the dented ones, and lighter than max), while the one on the right was a max recommended load.

Primers.jpg


The best explanation I have of the event was that with the lightest loads there was a secondary explosion effect (SEE). There was an initial explosion that did not seal the neck of the case, and then a secondary explosion that leaked around the neck and dented in the cases. You can also see the primer of the lightest load is much more flattened than that of the intermediate load, and getting close to the max load primer.

So I'm convinced the SEE of light loads using slow powders is real and more than an internet phenomena. The reason cast bullet guys are getting away with light loads is through powder selection. H4895 if recommended for the cartridge can be loaded down to 60% of max, because it is a faster powder. Others are using very light loads of very fast powder to get subsonic loads.
 
SEE is not secondary explosion but secondary ignition. One is not the same as the other. Smokeless powders do not explode they burn. If you want to see the difference pour a half ounce of smokeless powder on cement and an half ounce of black powder. Stand back and ignite the two. One explodes the other burns.

Take Care

Bob
 
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