Unserialed Long Branches - how common/rare?
- Thread starter spinecracker
- Start date
They are not that uncommon. Have seen a few. As to where or why??
Lunchbox specials is the best guess.
I believe your guess is as good as anyone else's...??
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Unserialized replacement receivers were common in the Canadian system:
Have seen:
Inglis High Powers
No4MkI & MkI* (most dated 1945)
"C"No7 (no signs of grinding)
been told of:
Inglis Bren
C1 & C2 spare receivers (C1 & 8L C1A"2" type)
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Not likely, almost certainly a "replacement receiver" "written off" and assembled by an armourer for personal use.
Or assembled after sale to DCRA/Militia member.
Pre FLQ the Canadian Military and Government was much more comfortable with trusting it's citizens.
I have one. It came from an old timer who worked at LongBranch. He says it was given to him as a gift from some fellow workers. I am guessing the gift was "undocumented".
What is interesting is that the rifle is about 4" shorter than it should be. I have assumed this was done by the guys who put it together.
But, maybe it was part of some kind of trial or concept and once done, the guys helped themselves to it?
Was there any experimental work done on shorter #4 rifles?
What is interesting is that the rifle is about 4" shorter than it should be. I have assumed this was done by the guys who put it together.
But, maybe it was part of some kind of trial or concept and once done, the guys helped themselves to it?
Was there any experimental work done on shorter #4 rifles?
I don't know about complete factory built rifles being released w/o serial numbers. It would certainly be totally contrary to practice to supply them to the military w/o serials
. Indeed, if they didn't have s/ns, the military would insist that they did before taking them into inventory. Things change a lot in the Army over the years (hells bells, they don't even seem to shine their boots any more), but a few things never do change. One big one is that small arms are always accounted for by s/n. I was a member of a Board of Inquiry shortly after integration of the 3 former services in 1968, which dealt with an Air Force unit issuing 100+ FN rifles w/o serial number control. There was heavy duty sh@t to pay over that one
.
Having said that, back in the mid-70s I did buy a new-in- grease 1953 dated CNo7 receiver with no s/n, and no indication of ever having one, from the old Globe Firearms in Vanier, ON. It may have come out of DND surplus or perhaps was sold directly out of Cdn Arsenals. I also recall buying a surplus 1942 Longbranch receiver w/o serial number in 1972. This one had the DND inventory tag and had been re-parkerized. The old s/n had been ground out, so it appeared to have been held in DND stock as a spare receiver.
. Indeed, if they didn't have s/ns, the military would insist that they did before taking them into inventory. Things change a lot in the Army over the years (hells bells, they don't even seem to shine their boots any more), but a few things never do change. One big one is that small arms are always accounted for by s/n. I was a member of a Board of Inquiry shortly after integration of the 3 former services in 1968, which dealt with an Air Force unit issuing 100+ FN rifles w/o serial number control. There was heavy duty sh@t to pay over that one.Having said that, back in the mid-70s I did buy a new-in- grease 1953 dated CNo7 receiver with no s/n, and no indication of ever having one, from the old Globe Firearms in Vanier, ON. It may have come out of DND surplus or perhaps was sold directly out of Cdn Arsenals. I also recall buying a surplus 1942 Longbranch receiver w/o serial number in 1972. This one had the DND inventory tag and had been re-parkerized. The old s/n had been ground out, so it appeared to have been held in DND stock as a spare receiver.
Ok, this may throw a cat among the pigeons...how about very early in WW2, say 1941? The example I was kindly given an opportunity to look at is a 1941 Long Branch, complete with the waisted front site protector, all correctly stamped and in very good condition, albeit the missing serial numbers.
I sure hope you're taking the opportunity of grabbing it if you can?
Waisted protector early is very rare as you know.
I don't buy this as an original Longbranch production rifle. If the piece was ever in military inventory as a complete weapon, then it will have a s/n. If the receiver was a spare in the ordnance system ( and this includes salvaged receivers used as spares with the s/n ground off), then it would be w/o a serial number. The un-serialized receiver may well have been disposed of and then used to build a rifle on at a later date. The demand for No4 rifles in the early yrs of production was such that all of them would have been supplied to the military as completed weapons. Some fast moving spare parts would have been furnished initially with a full range of spares, incl spare receivers, following later on.
The EMEI for the No4 rifle dated Oct 1946 includes a drawing/inventory for both the NoMkI and NoMkI* receivers, actually termed a "Body", but spares of all components, incl receivers, would have been abundant by this time.
If you examine this receiver closely, you may well see the contour changed on the butt socket where the original s/n was ground off. Some dimensional comparisons to a serialized butt socket would also be useful. It would also be interesting to know the dates and markings on the barrel.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Is the barrel dated 1941? does it have the requisite inspection markings out the yang on the cocking piece and barrel?
1941's were so over inspected that it isn't funny, if this gun doesn't show signs of that, don't even bother.
The cocking piece & barrel should show somewhere from 5-7 separate inspector's view marks on the 1941's.
I could assemble a 1941 "with no markings" too, the problem being that I couldn't reproduce ALL of the proper inspection markings on the major componants.
If it has ALL of the standard 1941 view markings, but doesn't have or show signs of an original serial number, then we can talk about it being something "special"
If it doesn't I don't believe it.
I was asked to post pictures of my unserialized #4. It is dated 1943. This was a retiremnt gift to a Long branch worker. I don't know if he retired during the war or after.
It is hard to imagine a legitimate gift to him in 1943. Lunch box maybe.
If he retired in 1946, why would the rifle be a mint, unmarked, 1943?
The only mark I can find on the rifle is a C broadarrow on top of the right wrist. Should be visible in the picture, beside the bolt.
Close exam of the bolt face, mag and feedramp suggest it has never been fired.
At the muzzle you can see bubba at work, unless there was some Longbranch experiment on shorter barrels. This is 22".
I am assuming this is lunchbox special, unless someone here knows different.
It is hard to imagine a legitimate gift to him in 1943. Lunch box maybe.
If he retired in 1946, why would the rifle be a mint, unmarked, 1943?
The only mark I can find on the rifle is a C broadarrow on top of the right wrist. Should be visible in the picture, beside the bolt.
Close exam of the bolt face, mag and feedramp suggest it has never been fired.
At the muzzle you can see bubba at work, unless there was some Longbranch experiment on shorter barrels. This is 22".
I am assuming this is lunchbox special, unless someone here knows different.
