From: Loyalist Arms & Repair <loyalistarms@...>
To: Jim Brown <jbrown_14105@...>
________________________________
"Thank you Jim for passing this posting on to me and your related questions
concerning some of the statements made as well.
I am sure the author has all good intentions at heart, is concerned for safety
and is attempting to be as accurate in his observations as possible, however I
believe it would be most beneficial, to correct a few minor errors or perhaps
mis-information contained in said posting.
First, a little background:
I am a certified gunsmith, since 1998 and can safely comment on my findings and
observations as you will see, regarding several manufacturers mentioned and
overall technical designs.
Loyalist Arms sells or has sold Pedersoli, Euroarms, Armi Sport IAB and
Palmetto arms, as well as effected repair work on these makes of firearms and
many others over the years.
"Indian Made Guns":
A common mis-conception of many folks is that all muskets "made in India" come
from the same factory or are generally all the same in manufacture and
materials.
Indeed, we have had some unscrupulous dealers claiming that their guns come
from the same factory as Loyalist Arms ones do.
This is false.
India has a vast number of small family owned assembly shops, as well as a few
larger ones. Many large exporters in India claim to make all that they sell and
this is false as well. A lot of individual model guns are subcontracted out by
larger companies. Having said all this, there are a few manufactories that make
up to 90% of their product that they distribute world wide.
I mention this to point out that some manufacturers make firearms that are
supposed to actually live fire and will handle a proof test, as well as some
that manufacture wall hangers, which should never be fired.
The frustration we at Loyalist Arms face, is that our guns are often times
categorized along with some low quality arms coming out of India.
To bring this whole issue into perspective, I compare the industry with North
American auto makers.
Suppose a particular manufacturer turns out poor quality cars.
Does this mean that all North American cars are junk? Of course not. Therefore
not all Indian "assembled" guns are junk either.
I use the word "assembled" for a reason.
The muskets we import are made exclusively for Loyalist Arms by one factory. They
are made to our requirements, from our measurements & samples and using
the materials needed for a fully functioning firearm. These arms are shipped to
us in an assembled, unfinished state and we do the lock timing, hardening of
necessary parts, stock finishing, stamping and some engraving,etc.
We do about 25-30% of the final work and assembly here. I seriously doubt that
any other importer or distributor can honestly claim that they do this work to
their imported muskets. We are gunsmiths and gun builders, not simply
distributors and dealers.
Our products are finished in house and have been totally disassembled and
finished before they are shipped to our customers. Occasionally, we do sell
unfinished kits as well.
Much of this information is posted on our web site,
www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com
under "about us".
All our muskets carry a warranty which includes the Indian assembled ones, just
like the Pedersoli muskets.
Now, to clarify a couple points brought up in the posting:
Our stocks are made of ROSE WOOD, not teak. There is a difference.
Teak can be very brittle, depending on the time the wood was harvested and
method of curing, while rose wood is more solid, dense and durable.
Teak can be used for gun stocks, but Rosewood is better. Anyone who builds
furniture or a musician can tell you about the virtues of rose wood, since it is
also used in extremely high quality exotic furniture and wind instruments.
Rosewood is just as durable as walnut, a little denser and heavier as well.
Walnut is not common to India, hence we use the best quality replacement wood
possible from that area.
Indeed, rosewood grain for the most part looks very similar to walnut.
To be fair, many factories in India do use Teak, but I am not addressing all
Indian made guns here, only ours.
Also, many Italian made muskets in the past claimed to use walnut but actually
stained Birch and Beech wood.
One manufacturer in Italy was famous for staining birch wood and calling it
walnut. This company has been out of business for several years now.
Pedersoli uses walnut for all their military muskets to the best of my
knowledge.
Both Pedersoli and our factory in India, use tubular steel, which is finished
on a lathe, both internally andexternally. By the way, we are also a Pedersoli
dealer and fully endorse Pedersoli products.
In fact our Indian factory uses tempered seamless high carbon steel, type
BS970. This stuff will handle a
proof test, no problem.
The modern method of musket barrel manufacture for most companies is not
drilling and turning solid stock.
That would be unbelievably expensive and time consuming for high production
purposes. Production methods however will be different, depending on
manufacturer and volume produced.
I am merely comparing Pedersoli to our Indian factory models.
Having said all this, I certainly do not claim that all factories in India use
this quality or type steel. Buyer beware !!
Quick note here:
Our cannon manufacturer in Canada uses a barrel liner of seamless tubing that
is rated for 90,000 PSI.
Modern seamless tubing is pretty strong stuff, especially when compared to the
original cast iron barrels of long ago.
Many of the breech plugs used on our Indian assembled flint muskets do have a
cap machined to the rear of the plug. This cap is an added safety feature for
the breech plug and a great asset, but is not solely used to form a gas seal as
assumed. This design is supplemental to merely threads alone.
By law, all guns coming out of Italy do NOT have to be proofed.
They must however, have an Italian proof mark. Most, if not all large
manufacturers in Italy proof only about 4 out of every batch of 50-100+ barrels
manufactured. If those barrels pass the proof test, then they are scrapped &
recycled and never used on a gun.
The rest of the barrel production run is assumed to be fine and duly stamped
with the Government proof mark.
When you purchase a brand new Italian mass produced musket, it is indeed new
and has never been fired.
Again, I am not commenting on ALL musket barrel manufacturers, only the big
ones who crank out hundreds of barrels at a time. By the way, many Italian
manufacturers contract out their barrels to barrel manufacturing companies.
Often times, the Indian companies do this as well.
Again, I am speaking of smooth bored musket barrels. I am not referring to
custom made rifle barrels or some barrels manufactured in the US .
Our Indian barrels are not proofed and since there is no national proof house
in Canada, stamping a homemade proof mark of our own doesn't mean anything. We
do supply loading data and proofing data with our muskets and
strongly suggest all our customers proof their barrels before regular use to
our supplied specs..
Actually I suggest customers proof their barrels no matter who the manufacturer
is.
I am not trying to favor any manufacturer, however, there are many Pedersoli
muskets that do not have threads that match between the face of the breech plug
and the threads in the barrels. I have personally worked on a couple Pedersoli
muskets, (as well as CVA, & Palmetto to name a couple), that had a gap between
the face of the breech plug and the threaded chamber of the barrel or a slight
gap with no threads. This may not be desirable, but is really not an issue, nor
does it cause serious problems, as long as the owner properly cleans&
maintains their musket.
Interestingly, some percussion long guns have a patent breech with a
pre-combustion chamber. This is a
complicated design and some would assume, hard to clean properly.
How hard is it to flush soapy hot water or solvent down a barrel anyway?
Follow up with oil and voila.
Important foot note here:
Do not attempt to fire any muzzle loading arm that has the breech plug welded
in place. It was never meant to be fired. Buyer beware!
I really cannot comment on loose screws nor poor geometry, not knowing if
observations made were proven to be one of Loyalist Arms guns or if this was
assumed. Nor knowing if the Loyalist Gun(s) observed were/was brand
new, out of the box, or very worn out versions, were in unfinished kit form,
nor if they may have suffered serious
customer abuse, poor maintenance, or poor gun smithing during their lifetime can
comments be made.
The same must be fairly considered of any manufacturers guns, taking into
account the above mentioned possible conditions.
As mentioned in the beginning of this ramble, we finish & time our own locks in
house.
I would rather compare the Loyalist Arms (assembled in India) Muskets to the
originals, rather than to a Pedersoli, as more credit would be given to the
Loyalist model if this comparison with the original was made. Our dimensions
are closer to
the originals than the slimmer, although excellent quality Pedersoli model.
The Loyalist model is also all hand assembled,just like the originals were.
It's too bad that more folks do not do the comparison to the originals, as the
Loyalist Bess was really designed to copy.
I think that's it.
Hopefully this answers any questions you may have.
A lot to digest, I know.
Well, now I must get back to work. Hope this was helpful.
Blair
LAR LTD
10 Brunt Road,
Harrietsfield, NS
Canada, B3V 1B1
Tel: 902-479-0967
Fax: 902-479-0032
www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com
"Those who go down to the sea in ships, Who do business on great waters, They
see the works of the Lord,
And His wonders in the Deep"
